IGX

Ed Zachary wrote:

baffled wrote:

Ed Zachary wrote:What's your reasoning for the elemination of the minimum wage?

I don't know Johno's, but a common argument (as I understand it, which I may not) is that many people lack the education and skills to justify being paid a minimum wage. In California, it's $8/hour.

Milton Friedman used to call the minimum wage "the most anti-negro law there is."

Maybe Johno will explain his take in a bit.

I can dig that.

I'd like to see more push to learn math, science, and trades.

I stress every time I talk to my kids that they need to get a "good" degree or learn a trade. Too many people with fucking "business" degrees that know fuck all about business or pretty much anything.

I had a buddy who went to trade school to become a welder in his early 20's, and went to college in his 30's. If he can't do what he got his degree for-- he can always weld for journeyman rates and make a good living. He's more educated (IMO becoming a journeyman welder is an education), more skilled, and more employable than most PhD's I know.

Others have already made good arguments for eliminating the minimum wage, but I'll try to show another angle.

There are never "not enough jobs." Quite the opposite, there are an infinite number of jobs...just look around your house or business: Is there shit that needs to be done? At my house, always. At my work, always. Construction & job sites? Or in the public parks & on the streets? Are they clean & pristine? No? Then there are jobs there.

A large part of the problem is that many jobs don't justify the wages that need to be paid (minimum wage plus Soc. Sec., plus Workers Comp. insurance premium, plus lots of other taxes & obligations, soon to include Obamacare premiums or penalties).

There becomes an excess of unskilled workers whose labor is not worth minimum wage to their employer. Some might be worth only $4.00 per hour to start. But it's illegal to hire someone at that wage.
And employers get to skim the cream off the top of those unskilled workers (cream=those with some work history & stability). The rest get left behind with no job, and no way to get work experience. "The rest" often work out to be young black men.

In short, minimum wage saws off the bottom rungs of the economic ladder.

***

There is a whole other cultural thing about an entry level job being beneath someone's dignity. That is also very damaging. But that gets solved with my Soylent Green option.

johno wrote:There is a whole other cultural thing about an entry level job being beneath someone's dignity. That is also very damaging.

This is a much bigger thing than any government intervention or lack thereof. Remember when you'd offer to work for free to just prove yourself
to an employer?

No one teaches that in the market, you're selling your labor not lining up for a raffle ticket.

Remember the Romans?

Cicero wrote: The budget should be balanced,
the Treasury should be refilled,
public debt should be reduced,
the arrogance of officialdom
should be tempered and controlled,
and the assistance to foreign lands
should be curtailed lest Rome become bankrupt.
People must again learn to work,
instead of living on public assistance.

Ed Zachary wrote:I stress every time I talk to my kids that they need to get a "good" degree or learn a trade. Too many people with fucking "business" degrees that know fuck all about business or pretty much anything.

Business degrees are how the SEC stays alive. No no, that SEC.


A close #2 are "communications" degrees. I work with people who have communications degrees and can't type coherent emails or explain things at meetings that a non-mindreader would be able to understand. I mean if you didn't study how to communicate...what did you study?

Blaidd Drwg wrote:

johno wrote:There is a whole other cultural thing about an entry level job being beneath someone's dignity. That is also very damaging.

This is a much bigger thing than any government intervention or lack thereof.

It seems that way. But only because so many options to work are allowed & enabled.

Blaidd Drwg wrote: No one teaches that in the market, you're selling your labor not lining up for a raffle ticket.

You certainly wouldn't learn that from the average public school teacher.

johno wrote:You certainly wouldn't learn that from the average public school teacher.

oddly enough...I remember first learning this from my stepfather, a public school teacher who's parents owned a small chain fo local variety/hardware stores. He always worked the summer and christmas vacations.

Side note: I'm a fire fighter, and we often do safety inspections in businesses. Some fire fighters are clueless about business, and they come on like mini-Hitlers.

johno wrote:Side note: I'm a fire fighter, and we often do safety inspections in businesses. Some fire fighters are clueless about business, and they come on like mini-Hitlers.

I've run into those guys..:)...fuckers are like building inspectors, always pulling that life safety argument, which is near impossible to rebut.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:

johno wrote:Side note: I'm a fire fighter, and we often do safety inspections in businesses. Some fire fighters are clueless about business, and they come on like mini-Hitlers.

I've run into those guys..:)...fuckers are like building inspectors, always pulling that life safety argument, which is near impossible to rebut.

Life Safety: We do inspections in businesses when all the fatal fires that I've seen were in residences.

johno wrote:

Blaidd Drwg wrote:

johno wrote:Side note: I'm a fire fighter, and we often do safety inspections in businesses. Some fire fighters are clueless about business, and they come on like mini-Hitlers.

I've run into those guys..:)...fuckers are like building inspectors, always pulling that life safety argument, which is near impossible to rebut.

Life Safety: We do inspections in businesses when all the fatal fires that I've seen were in residences.

which is why...we're eventually going to adopt that IRC Single Family residential sprinklering requirement.

ugh.

johno wrote:
There is a whole other cultural thing about an entry level job being beneath someone's dignity. That is also very damaging.

There is no such thing if you need to feed your family. I used to shovel out barns for 1F. an hour when I was a kid. We also hunted for our food when it got tight. To this day I would hunt if it was needed.

johno wrote:

Blaidd Drwg wrote:

johno wrote:Side note: I'm a fire fighter, and we often do safety inspections in businesses. Some fire fighters are clueless about business, and they come on like mini-Hitlers.

I've run into those guys..:)...fuckers are like building inspectors, always pulling that life safety argument, which is near impossible to rebut.

Life Safety: We do inspections in businesses when all the fatal fires that I've seen were in residences.

Yeah, same over here, but I guess this is only because legislation and inspections are so stringent. Wasn't like that back in the 70's. I'm guessing they don't do inspections in Bangladesh either. I do feel like we're a massive pain in the arse though at times.

My shortcut: I look up to the ceiling. If I see either a smoke detector or a sprinkler head, I relax. Then I just make sure the business has good exiting & no unusual hazards.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:

johno wrote:There is a whole other cultural thing about an entry level job being beneath someone's dignity. That is also very damaging.

This is a much bigger thing than any government intervention or lack thereof. Remember when you'd offer to work for free to just prove yourself
to an employer?

No one teaches that in the market, you're selling your labor not lining up for a raffle ticket.

Thank goodness your government is at work to prevent this exploitation/taking initiative from happening!

http://www.epi.org/blog/pushing-back-il ... ternships/

That's fuckin evil. Soon apprenticeships will be taxed.

The "Everyone Should Go to College" paradigm damages a lot of young men. Many 14+ year old kids are too antsy to sit on their asses for six hours a day; they need to get out in the Real World to gain some skills. That would be different from dropping out to hang out. If they want back into school later, that should also be supported.

johno wrote:The "Everyone Should Go to College" paradigm damages a lot of young men. Many 14+ year old kids are too antsy to sit on their asses for six hours a day; they need to get out in the Real World to gain some skills. That would be different from dropping out to hang out. If they want back into school later, that should also be supported.

This is a bit of a hipster rag but the essential message is a good one and it's well written.

http://www.amazon.com/Shop-Class-Soulcr ... 0143117467

Physical work can be and often is much more intellectually engaging than what we call "work" now. Alongside..everyone should go to college is the bullshit that everyone should own a home.

Slight tangent.

berating people to 'get a job' is only well and good if there are jobs around.

This is bullshit (in some areas). If you can work with your hands and put in 8-10+ hours a day, you can absolutely find a job for $17-35/hr or more. The most common complaint I get from the construction guys I represent is that they can't find people who are willing to work. More and more, the border jumpers are the only guys willing to put in the time and effort.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:

johno wrote:The "Everyone Should Go to College" paradigm damages a lot of young men. Many 14+ year old kids are too antsy to sit on their asses for six hours a day; they need to get out in the Real World to gain some skills. That would be different from dropping out to hang out. If they want back into school later, that should also be supported.

This is a bit of a hipster rag but the essential message is a good one and it's well written.

http://www.amazon.com/Shop-Class-Soulcr ... 0143117467

Physical work can be and often is much more intellectually engaging than what we call "work" now. Alongside..everyone should go to college is the bullshit that everyone should own a home.

Schools do not exist to teach students skills needed to become productive citizens, but to serve the interests of administrators and teachers unions. Once these are served, the mothers of kids who are likely to go to college anyway are their only important constituent.

I do a fair amount of long range planning work with local community colleges, there's a definitive shift in their plans for how and who they serve. Much more involvement from industries (auto, detntal, env. controls etc) in developing curriculum and investing in facilities. I see a lot of good in this.