IGX

DrDonkeyLove wrote:13 Principles of the Jewish Faith

I just looked up the 13 principles of the Jewish faith and didn't see anything relating to ethical monotheism. Other than "I believe with perfect faith that G-d rewards those who keep His commandments, and punishes those who transgress Him.", I don't see anything relating to ethics.

As always with the desert religions, doesn't it distill down to, G_d is super powerful, He's got His eye on you and He's ready to reward and/or punish your deeds so keep your shit together if you know what's good for you?

So, save everybody a bunch of time by telling the kids that there is a god out there who is THE G_d and He's ready to kick the ever loving shit out of them for pissing Him off. And, lucky for them, you just happen to have a list of things that they should do to keep on His good side. Class dismissed and it's time for Hamantashen cookies.

If kids think that religion is about blind faith, and that the real world is about skepticism, they will put religion in a compartment like work or sports or whatever as opposed to a guide to life. My goal is to let them know it's OK to question, and that there are answers, though no proofs.

As to the relation of ethical monotheism to the 13 principles, the first five relate to monotheism, and the last eight relate to knowing what the right thing is to do, and why to do it. In my IronGarm discussion, I'm beginnig with the notion of ethical monotheism and then will likely turn to the first five principles, which relate to monotheism. But we've got work to do to reach that point in the discussion.

Why do you start with all these "not-G-d" definitions when your subject matter is G-d?

HH, I have to complete 45 credit hours by the end of March in order to renew my license. Is this course you're teaching approved for CE credit?

Hebrew Hammer wrote: Agnosticism is an individual's view that he doesn't know whether God exists. He may or may not believe that it's impossible to know whether God exists. As a view for life, agnosticism is of little significance other than to distinguish the agnostic from the atheist and the true believer. The significant variable is how one acts. Most people who call themselves agnostics act as if a God who expects something of us doesn't exist.

That's enough for today.

Yes, I have noticed this of Agnostics, too. Interesting how those who claim to believe God exists don't exhibit such behavior.

johno wrote:Why do you start with all these "not-G-d" definitions when your subject matter is G-d?

They are part of the obstacles to overcome to argue for ethical monotheism.

HH, just curious, how will you handle it when your students google you and then ask why you post on IGX ?

Andy79 wrote:HH, I have to complete 45 credit hours by the end of March in order to renew my license. Is this course you're teaching approved for CE credit?

If they're not, they should be.

Hebrew Hammer wrote:

Andy79 wrote:HH, I have to complete 45 credit hours by the end of March in order to renew my license. Is this course you're teaching approved for CE credit?

If they're not, they should be.

How about contacting the state of Michigan and finding out what you need to do to get it approved. Courses are broken down into 6 CE hours. You could break yours down into 8 courses of 6 credits each and one could meet the whole requirement all at once.

I'm going to read this thread with a somewhat bemused or puzzled interest and perhaps learn something. I've had zero religious indoctrination in my 55 years of existence. Somehow by accident it appears I have managed to follow both tenants of living a good life and doing the right thing and I've raised two sons that have followed this very same notion. Although it is nearly impossible to offend me I could if I chose to, take offense at your statment that since I've not accepted the existence of an all-knowing zombie that can read my thoughts I have lived a shallow and cribbed life...what the fuck does cribbed even mean in this context? So if you want me to play along and convince me of something then chill with the comments and move on with what you're trying to do. But I've already got my eye on you and a kick right to the fucking gut may be in order if there's any more name calling.

Shapecharge wrote:I'm going to read this thread with a somewhat bemused or puzzled interest and perhaps learn something. I've had zero religious indoctrination in my 55 years of existence. Somehow by accident it appears I have managed to follow both tenants of living a good life and doing the right thing and I've raised two sons that have followed this very same notion. Although it is nearly impossible to offend me I could if I chose to, take offense at your statment that since I've not accepted the existence of an all-knowing zombie that can read my thoughts I have lived a shallow and cribbed life...what the fuck does cribbed even mean in this context? So if you want me to play along and convince me of something then chill with the comments and move on with what you're trying to do. But I've already got my eye on you and a kick right to the fucking gut may be in order if there's any more name calling.

A point is generally made most clear by overstating a bit, especially on this forum. Lawyer-like hedging usually leads to philosophical tapioca. Also, I forgot that many here are sensitive to name-calling. So, the more polite, and more exact way to make the point is this: All things being equal, the atheist, materialist, or logical empiricist generally lead lives that do not recognize the fullness of their human potential. Something worthwhile and significant is missing. As to agnostics, I'd need a few more qualifiers.

What about people who hate religion of all sorts and all the shit it has caused society?

tough old man wrote:What about people who hate religion of all sorts and all the shit it has caused society?

That seems to me to be a different question than whether God exists and has ethical expectations.

Any rational person who has studied history or follows current events has to be horrified by the massacres carried out in God's name. That belief can fit well with a wide variety of views about religion and God.

Pinky wrote:Good luck with your class. I made a few edits that I think will improve your presentation. I hope they help.

Hebrew Hammer wrote:I'm preparing to teach my Sunday School class the 13 principles of Jewish belief. The first five are universal prinicples. To sharpen me up for the task, I'll enlighten you on ethical monotheism.

That's enough for today.

FWIW, except for my activity on IGx, as well as my hate for HH set aside for the moment, I have made an effort to live my life "in RL" as a good person. I take part in charity, put others ahead of my self (more than I probably should), help to support take care of my family as best as I can, and... I just don't act like a dick.

I was a mentor in my Christian youth group my senior year of high school. I've studied the bible extensively through college both academically and as a matter of faith, and can honestly say that the more I continued to read it and be active in my church, the less I believed anything it said.

God simply doesn't need to exist for people to live a life that brings more good into the world than it takes from it.

I fit fairly well in the "don't know anymore, and don't really care" crowd. I just don't believe a word I've read in any holy book to be The Word.

Also FWIW, I've also read the Q'ran.

Hebrew Hammer wrote:

tough old man wrote:What about people who hate religion of all sorts and all the shit it has caused society?

That seems to me to be a different question than whether God exists and has ethical expectations.

Any rational person who has studied history or follows current events has to be horrified by the massacres carried out in God's name. That belief can fit well with a wide variety of views about religion and God.

So the point of your class is G_d's ethical expectations for humanity? Do those expectations extend beyond "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and mind and strength, and your neighbor as yourself"?

IMHO people who believe in established religions lead the "cribbed" lives. They literally adopt a belief system and codes of behavior in toto. Even stuff that is illogical is indoctrinated - like not eating certain foods or killing animals a certain way or not putting in a light switch or playing sport on a particular day of the week. "Cribbed" is a very amusing word to describe atheists and agnostics, from a Jew indoctrinating young people into his religion. Most atheists and agnostics I know arrived at their position through their own questioning of the belief systems handed to them.

I'm not sure that denigrating the entire lives of those outside organised monotheism is either logical, necessary or particularly nice. Smacks of closed-mindedness and arrogance.

Gorbachev wrote:IMHO people who believe in established religions lead the "cribbed" lives. They literally adopt a belief system and codes of behavior in toto. Even stuff that is illogical is indoctrinated - like not eating certain foods or killing animals a certain way or not putting in a light switch or playing sport on a particular day of the week.

The question to ask is why do these religions ask believers to do these things. You might find that there's a deeper meaning.

Hebrew Hammer wrote:

Shapecharge wrote:I'm going to read this thread with a somewhat bemused or puzzled interest and perhaps learn something. I've had zero religious indoctrination in my 55 years of existence. Somehow by accident it appears I have managed to follow both tenants of living a good life and doing the right thing and I've raised two sons that have followed this very same notion. Although it is nearly impossible to offend me I could if I chose to, take offense at your statment that since I've not accepted the existence of an all-knowing zombie that can read my thoughts I have lived a shallow and cribbed life...what the fuck does cribbed even mean in this context? So if you want me to play along and convince me of something then chill with the comments and move on with what you're trying to do. But I've already got my eye on you and a kick right to the fucking gut may be in order if there's any more name calling.

A point is generally made most clear by overstating a bit, especially on this forum. Lawyer-like hedging usually leads to philosophical tapioca. Also, I forgot that many here are sensitive to name-calling. So, the more polite, and more exact way to make the point is this: All things being equal, the atheist, materialist, or logical empiricist generally lead lives that do not recognize the fullness of their human potential. Something worthwhile and significant is missing. As to agnostics, I'd need a few more qualifiers.

Following a distinguished legal career, a man arrived at the Gates of Heaven, accompanied by the Pope, who had the misfortune to expire on the same day. The Pope was greeted first by St. Peter, who escorted him to his quarters. The room was somewhat shabby and small, similar to that found in a low grade Motel 6 type establishment. The lawyer was then taken to his room, which was a palatial suite including a private swimming pool, a garden, and a terrace overlooking the Gates. The attorney was somewhat taken aback, and told St. Peter, "I'm really quite surprised at these rooms, seeing as how the Pope was given such small accommodations." St. Peter replied, "We have over a hundred Popes here, and we're really very bored with them. We've never had a lawyer."

Smacks of closed-mindedness and arrogance.

That's religion for you...

Gorbachev wrote:IMHO people who believe in established religions lead the "cribbed" lives. They literally adopt a belief system and codes of behavior in toto. Even stuff that is illogical is indoctrinated - like not eating certain foods or killing animals a certain way or not putting in a light switch or playing sport on a particular day of the week. "Cribbed" is a very amusing word to describe atheists and agnostics, from a Jew indoctrinating young people into his religion. Most atheists and agnostics I know arrived at their position through their own questioning of the belief systems handed to them.

I'm not sure that denigrating the entire lives of those outside organised monotheism is either logical, necessary or particularly nice. Smacks of closed-mindedness and arrogance.

Part of my reason in choosing those words is that they're the ones usually hurled at believers by the anointed elite who have thought deeper and clearer than the blinded herd. Earlier in the thread I restated the proposition in more neutral terms about human potential so as to avoid giving offense.

baffled wrote:God simply doesn't need to exist for people to live a life that brings more good into the world than it takes from it.

Then there are no facts, only interpretations.

You're really taking the feedback well.

Crom laughs at your Jehovah.

I like how says "don't call me names" and goes on to insult everyone who may disagree with him preemptively.

Yech

I live in a city of crazy christian pukes. I hate them all.

Hebrew Hammer wrote:

Gorbachev wrote:IMHO people who believe in established religions lead the "cribbed" lives. They literally adopt a belief system and codes of behavior in toto. Even stuff that is illogical is indoctrinated - like not eating certain foods or killing animals a certain way or not putting in a light switch or playing sport on a particular day of the week. "Cribbed" is a very amusing word to describe atheists and agnostics, from a Jew indoctrinating young people into his religion. Most atheists and agnostics I know arrived at their position through their own questioning of the belief systems handed to them.

I'm not sure that denigrating the entire lives of those outside organised monotheism is either logical, necessary or particularly nice. Smacks of closed-mindedness and arrogance.

Part of my reason in choosing those words is that they're the ones usually hurled at believers by the anointed elite who have thought deeper and clearer than the blinded herd. Earlier in the thread I restated the proposition in more neutral terms about human potential so as to avoid giving offense.

Oh yes. You didn't offend me at all when you said:

All things being equal, the atheist, materialist, or logical empiricist generally lead lives [sic] that do not recognize the fullness of their human potential. Something worthwhile and significant is missing.

Are you for real? Do you know how pompous and dismissive that statement is?

This would be funny. But even modern societies still seek to put "religious faith" on a pedestal. We're supposed to ignore the derision (express and implied) and the ridiculous state of the 3,000 year old "faiths" because they are essentially matters of private rights and conscience and are so above challenge. To put this in less neutral terms, indoctrination of children into viral mind-control bullshit is above reproach as it's "a matter of faith".

More interesting than this tired old bullshit is this. I don't know why you bother to come to a website that seems to be half porn and half racism, talking about indoctrinating children into the Jewish faith, in terms which are insulting to those who are not religious. Seriously. I am a fair-minded person. What exactly are you doing? Trolling? Crusading? You're a bit of a case, aren't you? I stand up to bullshit on here all the time. I even did so on your behalf quite recently and I don't know if you even noticed or cared. But what do you actually think you're doing? Or achieving?