IGX

JimZipCode wrote: I would assume that the state has no right to prosecute any crime that it uncovers this way. If the police force you out of your house, and you were busy torturing some waitress you chloroformed and dragged into your car the night before, then you just get away with it. They have no right to use any evidence that they uncovered this way.

Right?

Ed Zachary wrote:

JimZipCode wrote: I would assume that the state has no right to prosecute any crime that it uncovers this way. If the police force you out of your house, and you were busy torturing some waitress you chloroformed and dragged into your car the night before, then you just get away with it. They have no right to use any evidence that they uncovered this way.

Right?

I wouldn't count on that.

Turdacious wrote:

Blaidd Drwg wrote:

Turdacious wrote: They came out in force, people felt safer, no citizens got hurt because of police action-- what was the problem?

Pinky wrote:Boston PD effectively put a city under house arrest for a day. There's a video that allegedly shows one of these house searches, but the media don't care. They won't look into it authenticity, or demand an explanation.

I'll go further and say they effectively declared martial law and suspended the 4th Amendment.

And followed 200 and some odd years of precedent in the process. Boston is not in the 9th Circuit's jurisdiction, so not like they have a lot to worry about.

We wanted an overwhelming but temporary show of force. No citizens were seriously harmed, only the criminals. They were fulfilling their duty. Clumsy? Maybe. Effective? Absolutely.

protobuilder wrote:You guys busy buying bullets and ARs should be busy reading books and getting law degrees. That's how things are truly resolved in situations like this. Not as macho I guess though, so keep training BJJ and talking shit at the local gun range.

Pinky wrote:

Turdacious wrote:We wanted an overwhelming but temporary show of force. No citizens were seriously harmed, only the criminals. They were fulfilling their duty. Clumsy? Maybe. Effective? Absolutely.

On what fucking planet was the police reaction effective? The cost of shutting a large city down for a day in terms of lost productivity is astronomical, even if you ignore the loss of civil liberties. And then the shutdown and the warrantless searches produced nothing, exactly as anyone with any sense would have expected. The guy was found by an ordinary citizen after the gestapo gave up on their "effective" manhunt.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:Turd, your obliqueness is staggering in it's breadth. Kudos.

Turdacious wrote:Boston PD doesn't get the benefit of 20/20 hindsight going in, and productivity compared to what-- a city where a bomb hadn't gone off?

People expected an overwhelming show of force-- they got it. It was reassuring and temporary.

Terry B. wrote:People expected an overwhelming show of force?

Former Rep. Ron Paul said the law enforcement that swarmed around Boston in the days following the marathon bombings was scarier than the actual terrorist attack.
“The Boston bombing provided the opportunity for the government to turn what should have been a police investigation into a military-style occupation of an American city,” he said on the Lew Rockwell website, Politico reported. “This unprecedented move should frighten us as much or more than the attack itself.”
The terror attacks on April 15 in Boston killed three and injured 264.
Mr. Paul, a former libertarian political candidate who served in Congress as a member of the Republican Party, said the door-to-door searches police conducted in Watertown for the bombing suspects were particularly alarming.
They reminded of a “military coup in a far off banana republic,” he said, Politico reported. “Force lockdown of a city. Militarized police riding tanks in the streets. Door-to-door armed searches without warrant. Families thrown out of their homes at gunpoint to be searched without probable cause. Businesses forced to close. Transport shut down.”
Mr. Paul reminded the surviving suspect, 19-year-old Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, was ultimately discovered by a civilian, and not due to police crackdown, Politico reported.
“He was discovered by a private citizen, who then placed a call to the police,” he said. “And he was identified not by government surveillance cameras, but by private citizens who willingly shared their photographs with the police.”


Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... z2Rxoe7lXf
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter

protobuilder wrote:

ButterCupPowerRanch wrote:
I'm sure a bunch of people thought "This is bullshit!", but what were those people to do?

Exactly. What are you going to do with your thousands of rounds of ammo? Nothing. And even if you do, very very few will join you and you will be done before too long.

The reality is, the ONLY serious solution is using the system of checks and balances: file a lawsuit challenging the actions of the State.

You guys busy buying bullets and ARs should be busy reading books and getting law degrees. That's how things are truly resolved in situations like this. Not as macho I guess though, so keep training BJJ and talking shit at the local gun range.

Turdacious wrote:

Blaidd Drwg wrote:Turd, your obliqueness is staggering in it's breadth. Kudos.

Then explain to me why Boston PD's reaction doesn't meet the extraordinary circumstances test constitutionally. They didn't have the luxury of being able to monday morning quarterback after the fact like we do.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:The Boston PD has the burden to show why they meet the exception to the rule, not vice versa.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:But if you like to use historic examples, in what potentially imminent terrorist attack did a municipality lock-down wholesale and start performing house to house swat raids?

Blaidd Drwg wrote: Choosing analogous circumstance, you've got the DC Sniper.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:Sept 11

Blaidd Drwg wrote:I'm sorry, I said oblique, I should have said Obtuse.

The short answer from your summary is, No. None. At no other time, in response to a manhunt for two criminals have state and local LEOs felt compelled to shut down a city and initiated house to house SWAT raids.

Like the security theater that immediately followed 9/11, the only effect of Boston PD's actions had was to magnify the fears generated by the original attack.

Pinky wrote:

Turdacious wrote:Boston PD doesn't get the benefit of 20/20 hindsight going in, and productivity compared to what-- a city where a bomb hadn't gone off?

Who's asking for hindsight? Insight would have been nice. A little common sense would have told them that, if you're looking for someone, removing millions of eyes from the search is bad idea. It also would have told them that using 30-member SWAT teams to search one house at a time, forcing residents out at gun point, was an inefficient use of police resources. (But those searches were "voluntary", because people could have said "no" to the officers point rifles and barking orders at them.)

When in the history of manhunts have the police used similar tactics? You talk about precedents. Start listing similar cases. My memory of every manhunt I've ever heard of suggests the Boston PD's tactics are exceptionally rare.

Pinky wrote:

Turdacious wrote:People expected an overwhelming show of force-- they got it. It was reassuring and temporary.

You keep saying this, but it's not true. What people expected is that the police would do everything they could to catch the perpetrators. The problem is that both the police and the public have forgotten that corralling and harassing the public are not actually required for basic police work.

The two brothers suspected in the Boston Marathon bombings, who police say engaged in a gun battle with officers early Friday after a frenzied manhunt, were not licensed to own guns in the towns where they lived, authorities said on Sunday.

Batboy2/75 wrote:LOL.

Someone needs to tell them Syrians file a law suit.

Most pathetic strawman argument post in while, but we must consider the source. If armed resistance didn't work, we'd all be talking with fucked up accents and eating bangers and mash.

Batboy2/75 wrote:LOL.

Someone needs to tell them Syrians file a law suit.

Most pathetic strawman argument post in while, but we must consider the source. If armed resistance didn't work, we'd all be talking with fucked up accents and eating bangers and mash.

protobuilder wrote:

Batboy2/75 wrote:LOL.

Someone needs to tell them Syrians file a law suit.

Most pathetic strawman argument post in while, but we must consider the source. If armed resistance didn't work, we'd all be talking with fucked up accents and eating bangers and mash.

There, there. Put your head back in the sand. I'm sure you're right. Today's world is very much like the Revolutionary-era world. Nothing to see here.

....

Guys like you are always pawns in the game that's run by lawyers and politicians. What surprises me is that you embrace the role so heartily.

Boston Manhunt ‘Missed the Boat’ as Police Skip Street
By Kathleen M. Howley and Michael McDonald - Apr 30, 2013
Sue Lund lives about five blocks from where police engaged in a wild shootout April 19 with the two Boston Marathon bombing suspects and about eight doors down from where the one who escaped alive was found 18 hours later.

Yet, during the all-day manhunt, she said police never searched her Franklin Street home or garden shed in Watertown, Massachusetts. Ten other neighbors had the same story and said they didn’t know of any homes that had been searched on Franklin, where Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was discovered by someone on the street about 30 minutes after an area lockdown was lifted.

“A lot of people’s lives were put in danger because someone in charge wasn’t doing his job,” said Lund, 61, as she stood on the wide front porch of her Victorian house. “People could have been killed because after the lockdown ended everyone came streaming out of their houses and suddenly we were in a combat zone.”

It has been more than a week since police were hailed as heroes in Boston, eliciting cheers and hugs in the aftermath of the death of one suspect and capture of the other in the April 15 bombing that killed three and injured 260. As more details of the bombing and the subsequent search for Tamerlan Tsarnaev and his younger brother Dzhokhar emerge, some residents and officials are expressing skepticism about the police work.

‘Dots Connected?’

Scrutiny of the Boston bombing case isn’t limited to the hunt for the suspects. The Obama administration and Congress are reviewing whether there was an intelligence failure. Officials want to know whether better information sharing among the FBI, CIA and the Homeland Security Department could have alerted them to the danger of the suspects, or at least helped identify them after the bombing, given that the older brother was on a U.S. terror watch list. Instead, the FBI released images captured at the marathon as it sought help from the public, sparking a 20- hour wave of violence and fear that gripped the greater Boston area.

“The lesson we learned on 9-11 was the failure to connect all the dots,” said Michael Sullivan, the former U.S. Attorney for the District of Massachusetts, referring to the 2001 terrorist attacks. “The question here is: Were all the dots connected?”

Back in Watertown, a community of 30,000 people across the Charles River from the western edge of Boston, the questions are more immediate. How did hundreds of police who descended on the town fail to find a 19-year-old, who was unarmed and shot, lying under a tarp on a boat in the backyard of a house about 400 yards (366 meters) from where he had abandoned a car after fleeing the scene of the firefight?

20 Blocks

Authorities initially said Tsarnaev was found outside the 20-block area that was supposed to be subject to the most intensive part of the manhunt, including searches of the inside and outside of every house. Edward Davis, Boston’s police commissioner, last week said that in fact, the younger suspect had been found inside that zone.

David Procopio, a spokesman for the Massachusetts State Police, said it remains under investigation whether the yard and boat at 67 Franklin St. in Watertown where Tsarnaev was found had been searched earlier on April 19. He also said all the suspect’s movements from the time of the firefight until he was captured remains under investigation.

“We do not know whether he was in the boat all day,” Procopio said in an e-mail.

Watertown Lockdown

While the FBI is overseeing the bombing investigation, the search in Watertown was done under joint direction of the state police and local police with assistance from numerous other local departments, said Procopio, who declined to identify those who oversaw the search of the area.

“A very detailed action report will be completed to assess and evaluate that day’s operations,” he said.

Jason Pack, a spokesman for the FBI, which provided intelligence and agents in the manhunt, declined to comment.

The manhunt harnassed K9 units, SWAT teams, bomb squads, the air force wing of the state police and various other investigative units, according to Procopio. Before heavily armed forces scoured the area and helicopters buzzed the skies, Governor Deval Patrick ordered the lockdown across the Boston area, asking people to stay inside, and shut down the mass transit system.

The firefight where the older brother was killed left people in Watertown rattled and the lockdown trapped them in their homes in fear. Early that morning when police fired more than 200 rounds at the two suspects, and the two returned fire and threw bombs, more than a dozen bullets entered surrounding homes, according to Kathy Alpert, who lives nearby.

Boat Tarp

Still by around 6:15 p.m. on April 19, with the sun setting, Patrick lifted the lockdown even as authorities came up empty in their search. David Henneberry, who lives in the white three-story Victorian home at 67 Franklin St., went outside for some fresh air when he noticed the tarp on his boat in the backyard was loose. Then he saw blood and someone inside.

Henneberry went into his house and called police. He declined to comment when reached by Bloomberg News.

The actual capture took some time because authorities assumed the younger suspect was still armed and dangerous. SWAT teams and soldiers dressed for combat stormed down the street screaming for everyone to get inside, said Deanna Finn, who lives at one end of Franklin Street.

Something might have spooked the police, who fired 30 or more rounds and lobbed flash grenades at the boat on the trailer. The burst of bullets shredded the hull and hit neighboring houses, residents said.

‘Defenseless’ Man

“It’s awful that some defenseless, unarmed man had to find the bomber, when the people with the guns and all the protective gear couldn’t find him,” said Jaime Pepper, 27, who ran to her basement after authorities started firing.

The capture would come about an hour later, after a robot was sent in to tear off part of the tarp and an infrared scanner on a helicopter showed the suspect lying prone and motionless. Initial reports described the gunfire and grenade explosions as a firefight with a desperate fugitive. In fact, it was a one- sided shootout. Investigators didn’t recover a weapon from the boat, according to two federal law enforcement officials who asked not to be identified in discussing an active criminal probe.

Pepper said she saw police and National Guard soldiers on the road crossing Franklin, with an armored car parked near her side yard. They never came to her house, she said.

‘Our Street’

“No one disputes that the police and soldiers who searched for the bomber are heroes -- they put their lives on the line for us,” Pepper said. “I just wish they came down our street.”

Lund, the fellow Franklin Street resident, said she appreciates the hard work and bravery of the police and soldiers involved. Still, failing to search her block means someone wasn’t doing his or her job.

“With the helicopters and the Humvees and the soldiers and the police working all day to find him, all they had to do was search our street,” Lund said. “They missed the boat.”