IGX

Fucking right on target.


http://takimag.com/article/a_nation_of_ ... z2coaFWFt8

I've long cheered for a "vocational route" starting in about 9th grade.

Kids can split off and learn welding, basic mechanics, basic electrical, basic construction, pipe fitting, some drafting, etc.

They will be employable journeyman out the door in 12th grade, or within a few years of achieving mastery of whatever craft they choose to specialize in.

Kids coming out of school can't use tape measures. They are Apple product experts intently interested in liberal arts disciplines when they aren't intently interested in their Facebook status.

The vocational route is fine and should be encouraged, but McInnes, like the dim-witted cokehead he is runs off the rails a bit giving his blowjob to standardized testing as the path to it.

11-plus and similar systems have never been about divining 'IQ' - they're built to (unconsciously, even) perpetuate systems already in place. Children raised in coal mining homes and children raised by teachers and children raised by the economic elite aren't going to ever be on a level playing field at age 11. Nor will they even be on a level playing field when the PSATs and SATs roll around - not everyone's mommy and daddy can or will pay for extensive prep tutoring that can raise SAT scores hundreds of points.

The difficulty of encouraging vocations is that we cannot inherently lump the children of blue collar (or blue/white-collar) parents into their parents' occupations, nor can we offer a free pass to the more privileged children. Class mobility is already close enough to nonexistent in the US.

milosz wrote:The vocational route is fine and should be encouraged, but McInnes, like the dim-witted cokehead he is runs off the rails a bit giving his blowjob to standardized testing as the path to it.

11-plus and similar systems have never been about divining 'IQ' - they're built to (unconsciously, even) perpetuate systems already in place. Children raised in coal mining homes and children raised by teachers and children raised by the economic elite aren't going to ever be on a level playing field at age 11. Nor will they even be on a level playing field when the PSATs and SATs roll around - not everyone's mommy and daddy can or will pay for extensive prep tutoring that can raise SAT scores hundreds of points.

The difficulty of encouraging vocations is that we cannot inherently lump the children of blue collar (or blue/white-collar) parents into their parents' occupations, nor can we offer a free pass to the more privileged children. Class mobility is already close enough to nonexistent in the US.

My dad grew up on a tobacco farm, in Greensboro NC.

He has a Master's degree in physics from Wake Forest University, and he is a software engineer.

He didn't come from privilege. He just educated himself, and did well at school with the work ethic he learned on the farm.

He's a sharp guy.

Now, concerning the vocational stuff, I support this. Another big part of my dads success is his inborn wizardry at understanding math. He's just naturally good at it. Lots of kids have lots of different mental strengths and weaknesses, and lets face it- some kids just aren't cut out for "traditional" schooling. Some of them might benefit greatly in a vocational area and get a head start on making a good life for themselves. I think that's awesome.

The multiple of anecdote isn't data.

milosz wrote:The multiple of anecdote isn't data.

True. Just saying it can be done.

milosz wrote:The multiple of anecdote isn't data.

Thanks, professor.

I support it as well. And so does Mike Rowe. Aggie, Greensboro is right up the road from me.

http://foxnewsinsider.com/2013/08/04/mi ... ege-degree

milosz wrote: Class mobility is already close enough to nonexistent in the US.

Absolutely fucking wrong. Prove it.

Upward mobility from the middle or working class still works. The one area that has stalled in the USA is upward mobility from the bottom strata of society. We can argue all day about the causes, but I place the blame squarely on the welfare state and the victim culture in poor areas that doesn't value hard work, education or family.

I talk to my boy all the time about his options. Right now he's got a hard on for engineering we'll see how that pans out but I also encourage him to consider other blue collar options with an emphasis on DON'T FUCKING GET ANYONE PREGNANT and DON't GET MARRIED UNTIL YOU HAVE A GOID JOB. It's a lot easier to hustle working odd jobs, go to school, or apprentice if you don't have to worry about anyone but himself.

Ed Zachary wrote:I talk to my boy all the time about his options. Right now he's got a hard on for engineering we'll see how that pans out but I also encourage him to consider other blue collar options with an emphasis on DON'T FUCKING GET ANYONE PREGNANT and DON't GET MARRIED UNTIL YOU HAVE A GOID JOB. It's a lot easier to hustle working odd jobs, go to school, or apprentice if you don't have to worry about anyone but himself.

Exactly. Any teacher in the most fucked up school district will tell you parents matter. Good parents have high expectations of their children academically and will find some way to provide the best education for their children. Either via magnet schools, Public School Honors programs, charter schools, private schools, or home schooling. Their culture values education and hard work. They aren't going to let a failing school system and the other shitty parents ruin their children.

This is why a bunch of Vietnamese boat people can wash up on the CA shore pennyless and within a generation their children are doctors, lawyers, engineers, and or business owners. It also explains why generation after generation of native born poor people are caught in some sick cycle of poverty. Culture matters. Cultures that value hard work education, and family succeed. Those that don't are stuck in poverty

My son is in HS. He's in both honors (college Prep track) classes and takes vocational courses at the local JC. He's currently learning about welding and metal fabrication. The goal is to not only to learn a trade, but to support his goal of being a engineer.

Batboy2/75 wrote:

milosz wrote: Class mobility is already close enough to nonexistent in the US.

Absolutely fucking wrong. Prove it.

start here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/22/busin ... hardt&_r=0

look around. lots of material re limited mobility.

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013 ... -canadians

For more than a decade, it has been documented that Northern European countries do better at moving poor people up the ladder than the United States does

dead man walking wrote:

Batboy2/75 wrote:

milosz wrote: Class mobility is already close enough to nonexistent in the US.

Absolutely fucking wrong. Prove it.

start here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/22/busin ... hardt&_r=0

look around. lots of material re limited mobility.

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013 ... -canadians

For more than a decade, it has been documented that Northern European countries do better at moving poor people up the ladder than the United States does

First generation immigrants have plenty of upward mobility. Maybe it's a superior work ethic, maybe it's a greater likelihood of a better family structure, maybe it's less exposure to a welfare system with a vested interest in keeping them poor. Maybe it's all three.

dead man walking wrote:

Batboy2/75 wrote:

milosz wrote: Class mobility is already close enough to nonexistent in the US.

Absolutely fucking wrong. Prove it.

start here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/22/busin ... hardt&_r=0

look around. lots of material re limited mobility.

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013 ... -canadians

For more than a decade, it has been documented that Northern European countries do better at moving poor people up the ladder than the United States does

Open your eyes and read his comment. What did he state? "That Class Mobility is close enough to non-existant." That statement is still absolutely false, despite the articles you have linked to.

Nor did I state that everything is Peachy fine. if you are born into poverty in the USA, you are more than likely to die in Poverty. I blame culture. You can blame whatever.

Batboy2/75 wrote:

Ed Zachary wrote:I talk to my boy all the time about his options. Right now he's got a hard on for engineering we'll see how that pans out but I also encourage him to consider other blue collar options with an emphasis on DON'T FUCKING GET ANYONE PREGNANT and DON't GET MARRIED UNTIL YOU HAVE A GOID JOB. It's a lot easier to hustle working odd jobs, go to school, or apprentice if you don't have to worry about anyone but himself.

Exactly. Any teacher in the most fucked up school district will tell you parents matter. Good parents have high expectations of their children academically and will find some way to provide the best education for their children. Either via magnet schools, Public School Honors programs, charter schools, private schools, or home schooling. Their culture values education and hard work. They aren't going to let a failing school system and the other shitty parents ruin their children.

This is why a bunch of Vietnamese boat people can wash up on the CA shore pennyless and within a generation their children are doctors, lawyers, engineers, and or business owners. It also explains why generation after generation of native born poor people are caught in some sick cycle of poverty. Culture matters. Cultures that value hard work education, and family succeed. Those that don't are stuck in poverty

My son is in HS. He's in both honors (college Prep track) classes and takes vocational courses at the local JC. He's currently learning about welding and metal fabrication. The goal is to not only to learn a trade, but to support his goal of being a engineer.

All of this is excellent.

My parents were both born into poverty and by the time they finished HS, their families were solidly working class. When I was born, my parents were working class and by the time I finshed high school my parents were middle class. When my first child was born, my wife and I were solidly middle class and have since moved up into the upper middle class.

Hard work, education (HS, Vocational, and well as College), and family values are the difference in this time line.

Dr. Agkistrodon wrote:

milosz wrote:The vocational route is fine and should be encouraged, but McInnes, like the dim-witted cokehead he is runs off the rails a bit giving his blowjob to standardized testing as the path to it.

11-plus and similar systems have never been about divining 'IQ' - they're built to (unconsciously, even) perpetuate systems already in place. Children raised in coal mining homes and children raised by teachers and children raised by the economic elite aren't going to ever be on a level playing field at age 11. Nor will they even be on a level playing field when the PSATs and SATs roll around - not everyone's mommy and daddy can or will pay for extensive prep tutoring that can raise SAT scores hundreds of points.

The difficulty of encouraging vocations is that we cannot inherently lump the children of blue collar (or blue/white-collar) parents into their parents' occupations, nor can we offer a free pass to the more privileged children. Class mobility is already close enough to nonexistent in the US.

My dad grew up on a tobacco farm, in Greensboro NC.

He has a Master's degree in physics from Wake Forest University, and he is a software engineer.

He didn't come from privilege. He just educated himself, and did well at school with the work ethic he learned on the farm.

He's a sharp guy.

Now, concerning the vocational stuff, I support this. Another big part of my dads success is his inborn wizardry at understanding math. He's just naturally good at it. Lots of kids have lots of different mental strengths and weaknesses, and lets face it- some kids just aren't cut out for "traditional" schooling. Some of them might benefit greatly in a vocational area and get a head start on making a good life for themselves. I think that's awesome.

It's fantastic to hear of self-educated people with graduate degrees.

Batboy2/75 wrote:Fucking right on target.


http://takimag.com/article/a_nation_of_ ... z2coaFWFt8

Amen

milosz wrote:The multiple of anecdote isn't data.

More powerful than data by far.