IGX

Kudos on using "contemptible" in a post 3 times. Possibly a new internet record.

A sincere addition to the thread: I find Kaz's posts to be about the funniest here. Most funny things are absurd, but only *slightly*. They hit pretty close to home, unfortunately. I spent a lot of time in Alabama and Georgia while in the military, and saw some things, frankly, that shocked me. I didn't know people lived that way or behaved like that.

So, does Kaz actually *believe* everything he types? If so, i.e. he would stop to help an old white lady but not an old black lady stranded on the side of the road, that's unfortunate.

BUT, you know what's worse than that? All the morally and culturally relativistic slack-jawed faggots out there who don't have the sense or the balls to be willing to say that anything in this world is "right", or "better", than anything else. It's that head-in-the-sand attitude that is just as responsible for sending our country into the shitter as all the variously-colored miscreants themselves are.

Grandpa's Spells wrote:My point was that even for who whites who live in the predominantly-black areas, it is uncommon to be directly affected in a negative way.

You're basing this on what? How many white folk have you been around living in minority neighborhoods? Have you experienced this first hand? I have first hand and also when I worked in LE. 4 types of white personalities living in black neighborhoods:

1) the white trash equal to the nigger. Almost the same fucking attitude minus the skin pigment. These are always at odds with the blacks because they are so much like them but in reverse.

2) the seeker. This one seeks acceptance from the blacks, wants to fit in. This one doesn't get his ass kicked because they use him for whatever tickles their fancy. He gets a pass on ass beatin so long as he plays along. He will however be subjected to verbal abuse, racial slurs, and general bullying.

3) free pass. This one can normally come and go as he please. For whatever reason, this guy is seen as one of them. Normally something I do with money, drugs, sports, fear, etc

4) the victim. Just as it sounds. This poor asshole gets bullied, beat, robbed or any combo of those.

I know Spells lives in the Chicago area, but I cannot believe he actually sees ghetto people on a daily basis given his long term denial of seeing ghetto behavior, ever.

fucking jew

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:I know Spells lives in the Chicago area, but I cannot believe he actually sees ghetto people on a daily basis given his long term denial of seeing ghetto behavior, ever.

HE MUST BE A NORTH SIDER.

JDub wrote:You're basing this on what? How many white folk have you been around living in minority neighborhoods? Have you experienced this first hand? I have first hand and also when I worked in LE.

Yes, extensive first hand experience, including living in neighborhoods with gang violence.

I'm not going to try to change anybody's mind on this. Racial beliefs aside, I believe that avoiding most dipshittery is relatively simple. Even if you live around poor black people in reasonably high crime areas for years (not the highest-crime, that is indeed another story), the number of meaningfully negative experiences you're likely to have is very small, unless you're doing dumb shit yourself.

So, even if you were to have these few experiences, and no positive ones to persuade you otherwise, chances are you'd harbor some deeply negative feelings about black American culture as a whole. I have family who feel strongly that way, and I get why. But you wouldn't think about it all that much, because it's not coming up often enough to be an issue, unless you're doing stupid shit and having constant run-ins.

From a Internet forum posting standpoint, the day-in-day out shit you hear from Stormfront goofballs, and Kaz when he gets spun up, is just strange. Nobody outside of a very narrow range of careers is experiencing enough hassle to have negative thoughts about black people on the brain all the time, unless they're consuming very specific "news." So you wonder what the payoff is, because it's going way past what one would think is normal.

There's no point in arguing with these people, since they're completely un-persuadable. But what you end up with then is a one-sided hate storm that others chuckle along with because they're sympathetic to the views or can't resist a "but liberals are also racist" point. Most people aren't interested in consuming that. Most people aren't even interested in consuming hateful stuff they agree with.

Grandpa's Spells wrote:

JDub wrote:You're basing this on what? How many white folk have you been around living in minority neighborhoods? Have you experienced this first hand? I have first hand and also when I worked in LE.

Yes, extensive first hand experience, including living in neighborhoods with gang violence.

I'm not going to try to change anybody's mind on this. Racial beliefs aside, I believe that avoiding most dipshittery is relatively simple. Even if you live around poor black people in reasonably high crime areas for years (not the highest-crime, that is indeed another story), the number of meaningfully negative experiences you're likely to have is very small, unless you're doing dumb shit yourself.

So, even if you were to have these few experiences, and no positive ones to persuade you otherwise, chances are you'd harbor some deeply negative feelings about black American culture as a whole. I have family who feel strongly that way, and I get why. But you wouldn't think about it all that much, because it's not coming up often enough to be an issue, unless you're doing stupid shit and having constant run-ins.

From a Internet forum posting standpoint, the day-in-day out shit you hear from Stormfront goofballs, and Kaz when he gets spun up, is just strange. Nobody outside of a very narrow range of careers is experiencing enough hassle to have negative thoughts about black people on the brain all the time, unless they're consuming very specific "news." So you wonder what the payoff is, because it's going way past what one would think is normal.

There's no point in arguing with these people, since they're completely un-persuadable. But what you end up with then is a one-sided hate storm that others chuckle along with because they're sympathetic to the views or can't resist a "but liberals are also racist" point. Most people aren't interested in consuming that. Most people aren't even interested in consuming hateful stuff they agree with.

Pretty much hit that one on the head.

Racism is normative primate behavior...but then so is rape.

Like his angle or not, Kaz's literary contributions to this place are beyond reproach.

I was gonna list all the stuff I've seen and done, and make the claim that I'm not a dipshit, but after listing it, I don't think I could.

Being in the wrong place at the wrong time inadvertently has caused me some trouble.

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:I was gonna list all the stuff I've seen and done, and make the claim that I'm not a dipshit, but after listing it, I don't think I could.

Being in the wrong place at the wrong time inadvertently has caused me some trouble.

Same here.

Grandpa's Spells wrote:

JDub wrote:You're basing this on what? How many white folk have you been around living in minority neighborhoods? Have you experienced this first hand? I have first hand and also when I worked in LE.

Yes, extensive first hand experience, including living in neighborhoods with gang violence.

I'm not going to try to change anybody's mind on this. Racial beliefs aside, I believe that avoiding most dipshittery is relatively simple. Even if you live around poor black people in reasonably high crime areas for years (not the highest-crime, that is indeed another story), the number of meaningfully negative experiences you're likely to have is very small, unless you're doing dumb shit yourself.

So, even if you were to have these few experiences, and no positive ones to persuade you otherwise, chances are you'd harbor some deeply negative feelings about black American culture as a whole. I have family who feel strongly that way, and I get why. But you wouldn't think about it all that much, because it's not coming up often enough to be an issue, unless you're doing stupid shit and having constant run-ins.

From a Internet forum posting standpoint, the day-in-day out shit you hear from Stormfront goofballs, and Kaz when he gets spun up, is just strange. Nobody outside of a very narrow range of careers is experiencing enough hassle to have negative thoughts about black people on the brain all the time, unless they're consuming very specific "news." So you wonder what the payoff is, because it's going way past what one would think is normal.

There's no point in arguing with these people, since they're completely un-persuadable. But what you end up with then is a one-sided hate storm that others chuckle along with because they're sympathetic to the views or can't resist a "but liberals are also racist" point. Most people aren't interested in consuming that. Most people aren't even interested in consuming hateful stuff they agree with.

Nice try. I have no deep rooted hurt harbored. One of my best friends is black. Funny thing is I know lots of black people who share the same views as a lot of us on IGX when it comes to the black culture. They were lucky enough not to buy into it. It's funny that all the defenders of this culture are politically correct whites and the offenders themselves.

--

Grandpa's Spells wrote:...Even if you live around poor black people in reasonably high crime areas for years (not the highest-crime, that is indeed another story), the number of meaningfully negative experiences you're likely to have is very small, unless you're doing dumb shit yourself.
...

That's an interesting, "It doesn't affect me, so why worry," attitude that liberals usually project onto conservatives.

Maybe Kaz is just a public-spirited fellow who sees that the cancer of Ghetto Culture affects little black babies worst of all. He gets emotional because he cares.
You, on the other hand, can step around the chalk outlines & cartridge casings on the sidewalk without spilling your nonfat soy latte.

johno wrote:

Grandpa's Spells wrote:...Even if you live around poor black people in reasonably high crime areas for years (not the highest-crime, that is indeed another story), the number of meaningfully negative experiences you're likely to have is very small, unless you're doing dumb shit yourself.
...

That's an interesting, "It doesn't affect me, so why worry," attitude that liberals usually project onto conservatives.

Maybe Kaz is just a public-spirited fellow who sees that the cancer of Ghetto Culture affects little black babies worst of all. He gets emotional because he cares.
You, on the other hand, can step around the chalk outlines & cartridge casings on the sidewalk without spilling your nonfat soy latte.

JDub wrote:

Grandpa's Spells wrote:

JDub wrote:You're basing this on what? How many white folk have you been around living in minority neighborhoods? Have you experienced this first hand? I have first hand and also when I worked in LE.

Yes, extensive first hand experience, including living in neighborhoods with gang violence.

I'm not going to try to change anybody's mind on this. Racial beliefs aside, I believe that avoiding most dipshittery is relatively simple. Even if you live around poor black people in reasonably high crime areas for years (not the highest-crime, that is indeed another story), the number of meaningfully negative experiences you're likely to have is very small, unless you're doing dumb shit yourself.

So, even if you were to have these few experiences, and no positive ones to persuade you otherwise, chances are you'd harbor some deeply negative feelings about black American culture as a whole. I have family who feel strongly that way, and I get why. But you wouldn't think about it all that much, because it's not coming up often enough to be an issue, unless you're doing stupid shit and having constant run-ins.

From a Internet forum posting standpoint, the day-in-day out shit you hear from Stormfront goofballs, and Kaz when he gets spun up, is just strange. Nobody outside of a very narrow range of careers is experiencing enough hassle to have negative thoughts about black people on the brain all the time, unless they're consuming very specific "news." So you wonder what the payoff is, because it's going way past what one would think is normal.

There's no point in arguing with these people, since they're completely un-persuadable. But what you end up with then is a one-sided hate storm that others chuckle along with because they're sympathetic to the views or can't resist a "but liberals are also racist" point. Most people aren't interested in consuming that. Most people aren't even interested in consuming hateful stuff they agree with.

Nice try. I have no deep rooted hurt harbored. One of my best friends is black. Funny thing is I know lots of black people who share the same views as a lot of us on IGX when it comes to the black culture. They were lucky enough not to buy into it. It's funny that all the defenders of this culture are politically correct whites and the offenders themselves.

I don't know anything about you and wasn't talking about you.

johno wrote:

Grandpa's Spells wrote:...Even if you live around poor black people in reasonably high crime areas for years (not the highest-crime, that is indeed another story), the number of meaningfully negative experiences you're likely to have is very small, unless you're doing dumb shit yourself.
...

That's an interesting, "It doesn't affect me, so why worry," attitude that liberals usually project onto conservatives.

Not at all. It's "This doesn't affect you, so why is this such a frequent topic on your mind?"

Maybe Kaz is just a public-spirited fellow who sees that the cancer of Ghetto Culture affects little black babies worst of all. He gets emotional because he cares.
You, on the other hand, can step around the chalk outlines & cartridge casings on the sidewalk without spilling your nonfat soy latte.

Paint whatever picture you like, but you couldn't have this more backwards.

Given that I'm snowed in, here's a deeper dive into why racism is so poisonous, and I'll try to deal with some of the points raised in this and other threads on the issue.

Excuse the simplistic, selective explanation and spare me argument over details in presenting something complex in a few paragraphs. But the points should be clear.

Grouping people by characteristics is an evolved survival mechanism common to every species. It tells you whether something that moves in the bush is food or predator; it tells you whether someone who approaches is friendly or hostile; it defines in-group, stranger and foe. This is "prejudging" based on characteristics, or prejudice.

Humans evolved to deal with this in more complex ways. We developed tribal mechanisms with complex rules, and methods of kingship, slavery, non-aggression pacts, and serfdom. Prejudging or prejudice still reigns, but is refined by culture.

Then came Judaism with two profound principles: The first is that all men are made in the image of god. The second is to love the stranger because we were strangers in Egypt. This is a beginning of counter-prejudice, or what I'll call harmful prejudice to distinguish it from the ways in which prejudging is crucial and helpful to existence. (Spare me lectures on Judaism. I'm talking about the principles.)

Then came Greek philosophy, raising as the human art the faculty of reason that stands over passion, harmful prejudice, narrow self-interest, blood, ethnicity, and language. (Spare me lectures on the Greeks. I'm talking about the principles.)

Then came Roman positive and natural law. Other empires, like the Persians, had developed a notion of tolerance for conquered lands, but Romans enshrined it in law. And they started the notion of positive law protecting all, the concept of a republic, and a natural law that stands above passion, harmful prejudice, etc. (Spare me lectures on the Romans. I'm talking about the principles.)

And out of Judaism came Christianity with the notion that God rewards anyone based solely on human agency.

Western culture struggled with these concepts for centuries. They were ultimately fused in liberalism, the notion of free men, each created in God's image, with natural liberties. This is a powerful reasoned assault on harmful prejudice. But more than that, with Locke, it enshrined the notion that the state cannot act on harmful prejudice to interfere with any man's God-given natural rights.

Then came the American experiment. The Declaration of Independence said that it is a self-evident truth that all men are created equal. (Though riddled with inconsistency based on slavery, it served as the powerful guiding beacon that led to the abolishment of slavery and the securing of other liberties.) The constitution was a brilliant embodiment of principles as to how to live together accepting that man is as much a creature of reason as he is of passion, harmful prejudice, narrow self-interest, ethnicity, and religion.

For over 200 years, we have struggled with that project and we've made it work. It is revolutionary in history. We've accepted that all men are created equal and deserving of the same liberties.

As part of this, we've also developed a civil consensus on communication. One of the rules of the civil consensus is that incitement or encouragement of harmful prejudice is vile. America has achieved this by consensus. Europe, having seen the incredible destruction that vile incitement of harmful prejudice brings, tries to outlaw that speech. While I think the American approach is far better, we have been saved from Europe's sickening history of facism, Naziism, and communism. Regardless, it's a recognition of the powerful achievement of marginalizing incitement of harmful prejudice.

That achievement brings its own woes. Prejudging is still a vital skill. Dealing with social and cultural issues by grouping people in characteristics (like poverty, race, addiction, single-mom families, mental illness, culture, etc.) is critical to effective social policy. So we live with a gray area of tension in discussing problems with characteristics. It's why we enjoy plain-spokeness on these issues, why humor is so funny about them, and why we cheer when someone defies political correctness. Do blacks share views critical of ghetto culture? Absolutely. And they regularly voice it among themselves and among friends, but they realize how explosive it is to voice it publicly because it is so easily distorted by those spewing venom.

Outside the gray area is contemptible racism. Bringing down an entire race based on repeating instances and criticisms of certain members of a group, and then calling for getting rid of the whole group.

As a Jew, this is personal to me. History has not been good to the Jews. We've been killed and expelled from nearly every nation we've lived in. America is the leading, shining exception, and brought the world the principles that enshrine that type of polity. I'm free, I can speak my mind, vote, run for office, criticize anyone, now matter how powerful they are, strike, and the national consensus (which no law can compel) recognizes the Kaz's of the world as poisonous.

I do recognize, though, how fragile this achievement is, and speak out. Everyone should.

FRAT

Hebrew Hammer wrote:But more than that, with Locke, it enshrined the notion that the state cannot act on harmful prejudice to interfere with any man's God-given natural rights.

My favorite philosopher by far.

We developed tribal mechanisms with complex rules, and methods of kingship, slavery, non-aggression pacts, and serfdom. Prejudging or prejudice still reigns, but is refined by culture.

A combination of System 1 thinking and Bayesian statistics.

The LULZ of a Zionist condemning racism are rich and deep.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:The LULZ of a Zionist condemning racism are rich and deep.

I forgot about your itch, but you and baffled were powerless against it.

Anyway, here's the stupidity in your comments:

Forging a liberal (Lockean) consensus within a country is a monumental achievement. It's impossible in the world, though western democracies are giving it a good go. Other than that, the world is dominated by power, enforced by violence, stopped only by countervailing power.

So peoples defined by land, ethnicity, language, culture, whatever, form nations to protect themselves and to thrive. That's not racism. It's smart and praiseworthy. It's the history of the world post WW1 and is very alive today with, for example, Kurds, Tibetans, Kosovo, South Sudan, the Eastern European block of nations, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, and Israel (along with the other Arab nations formed after WW1, though that's a different story), to name a few.

Nationalisms arise partly to combat poisonous prejudice and often times use it. The nationalism is worthy; the poisonous prejudice is loathsome. And while I'm snowed in today, I don't have the time to defend Zionism once again. You can look at the 53 other threads on the subject. My recollection is a few were started with your comments.

Also, given your snarky superiority, how do you feel about poisonous prejudice? My guess is you're cool with it, though you wouldn't voice that in RL, and I'd also guess you won't answer my question. Easier to get down on Zionism.

Hebrew Hammer wrote:Given that I'm snowed in, here's a deeper dive into why racism is so poisonous, and I'll try to deal with some of the points raised in this and other threads on the issue.

You're doing it wrong.

The problem with vocal racism for the individual is the same as it is for people who walk around talking about being pissed off at Republicans, or Muslims, or Wall Street, or Whitey, or Al Sharpton. Occupying your thoughts with constant negativity is poisonous for you, all by itself.

If you've ever cut a person out of your life because they were too negative, or had one cut out for you, you've felt the difference. If you cut out (constant bad) news media, you've felt the difference.

OTOH, if you see somebody who spends all day with Fox or talk Radio or Olbermann on, you see a lot of this. People walk around angry all the time, usually at things completely outside their direct control. Walking around pissed off at things you can't control is pretty much the opposite of what you want to do if you want a happy and successful life.

What you consume directly impacts what you think about. Venting about stuff you hate makes you crazy. Reading and writing racist shit is bad for you, regardless of the merits of the racist argument.

Spells consoling himself that I'll die of cancer or heart disease.

Hebrew Yammer going off on a blizzard induced novella-gasm.

And I'm the crazy one.

Hebrew Hammer wrote:

Blaidd Drwg wrote:The LULZ of a Zionist condemning racism are rich and deep.

I forgot about your itch, but you and baffled were powerless against it.

Anyway, here's the stupidity in your comments:

Forging a liberal (Lockean) consensus within a country is a monumental achievement. It's impossible in the world, though western democracies are giving it a good go. Other than that, the world is dominated by power, enforced by violence, stopped only by countervailing power.

So peoples defined by land, ethnicity, language, culture, whatever, form nations to protect themselves and to thrive. That's not racism. It's smart and praiseworthy. It's the history of the world post WW1 and is very alive today with, for example, Kurds, Tibetans, Kosovo, South Sudan, the Eastern European block of nations, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, and Israel (along with the other Arab nations formed after WW1, though that's a different story), to name a few.

Nationalisms arise partly to combat poisonous prejudice and often times use it. The nationalism is worthy; the poisonous prejudice is loathsome. And while I'm snowed in today, I don't have the time to defend Zionism once again. You can look at the 53 other threads on the subject. My recollection is a few were started with your comments.

Also, given your snarky superiority, how do you feel about poisonous prejudice? My guess is you're cool with it, though you wouldn't voice that in RL, and I'd also guess you won't answer my question. Easier to get down on Zionism.

I'm glad you recognize my superiority.

Prejudice is hardwired, true right and normal...as you noted yourself. Race has fuck all to do with what you're bleeting about anyway. If you decide you want to fight against your own inner loathings, that's fine with me. In my professional life, I moderate my own prejudices as a matter of courtesy but Politeness and PC niceties have no place here.

Grandpa's Spells wrote:[Reading and writing racist shit is bad for you, regardless of the merits of the racist argument.

It's good for self-esteem. You never stand so tall as when you kick a midget in the nuts.