How's that isolationism working for you?

Topics without replies are pruned every 365 days. Not moderated.

Moderator: Dux

User avatar

Topic author
Hebrew Hammer
Chief Rabbi
Posts: 3351
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 11:14 pm

How's that isolationism working for you?

Post by Hebrew Hammer »

As long as I'm snowed in for another day, I'll comment on another lunacy favored by many on this Board -- utopian isolationism, Paul Rand idol worship, stick your head in the sand and all the problems in the world will be solved.

Now that we've pulled out of Iraq and Afghanistan and let Syria and Iran know that Randian isolationism rules the day, the Middle East is turning into one massive Shia/Sunni war, with the likelihood that we'll have huge regions where jihadi rulers and armies and terrorist trainers and oil sellers can safely ply their trades, all with the latest weaponry and perhaps even nuclear bombs. Seeing America with its head in the sand, Russia is flexing its muscle with the Ukraine and China is flexing its muscle throughout SE Asia. And all these folks are flocking to South American to support the lovely folks in Venezuela and Bolivia and Cuba.

What utopian isolationists ignore is that the world runs on power and might. Where we step back, others step in. We're the good guys, who believe in republics and human liberties and free trade. The other guys are interested in self-interest, no excuses. The other guys are like a kid in a candy store these days.
Image


DPR
Top
Posts: 1344
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:08 am

Re: How's that isolationism working for you?

Post by DPR »

How do you propose we stay engaged in the Middle East with a shrinking military budget? The focus is shifting to Asia. I don't think we can afford to keep our military engaged in both areas.

User avatar

Topic author
Hebrew Hammer
Chief Rabbi
Posts: 3351
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 11:14 pm

Re: How's that isolationism working for you?

Post by Hebrew Hammer »

DPR wrote:How do you propose we stay engaged in the Middle East with a shrinking military budget? The focus is shifting to Asia. I don't think we can afford to keep our military engaged in both areas.
That I don't know enough to answer well. Maybe our military-meisters can address this. My general sense is that the far east is an issue of forging the strongest alliance and supporting it by naval power. The Middle East is a hell hole, but it's one that can ignite the world. Putting off a strong approach today leads only to a world-threatening problem down the road.
Image

User avatar

Kenny X
Sgt. Major
Posts: 2712
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:00 pm
Location: Down on the bayou.

Re: How's that isolationism working for you?

Post by Kenny X »

Not only can we not as a nation afford to deal with the Middle East from a defense perspective, a lot of huge corporations -like the oil companies- have a vested interest in maintaining the cluster-fuck status-quo over there.

And unfortunately, Social Darwinism doesn't seem to be making as much headway as I'd like, in terms of eradicating Shia Muslims, even though they go so far as to blow themselves up, from time to time.

The problem with the Middle East is, and has always been, that it's full of reprobate, degenerate religious extremists, and corporate and political entities who get rich because of the trouble they cause, and it won't go away until all such parties are eradicated.

It's not that we have our head in the sand so much as it is we owe a lot of money to foreign countries, we have a huge debt because the government is full of Spending Junkies, the President sucks at foreign policy and corporate entities are getting rich off of the conflict; and we like being able to buy gas for our cars, no matter how much the price goes up per gallon and what's more, skyrocketing oil prices help drive up demand for electric alternatives for transportation, hybrid cars and the like, which in turn creates jobs and funnels money into the economy every time some treehugger buys a Prius. Also, because we're afraid of them (the "terrorists") we have the TSA which employs Americans as well, yet more jobs there. It goes on and on.

Basically, we don't really do anything because our economy depends, in large part, on those motherfuckers fucking shit up.


climber511
Gunny
Posts: 961
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:59 pm

Re: How's that isolationism working for you?

Post by climber511 »

The sums of money we (the US and allies) spent in our last few wars was a large contributing factor to the implosion of the world economy. If you pound enough sand in a rat hole and then explode it - that money can do no good to anyone. There is a difference between being being an isolationist and being stupid. In case you haven't noticed the infrastructure of the US is in terrible shape - and we blew up the money that could have at least started to fix it. One of the next crisis's we face is underground water lines - most of these were installed 50 to 70 years ago and are a disaster waiting to happen. And without federal monies - this will not be possible. Same with bridges, highways and many other things that require returning some of the taxpayers dollars back to their own country instead of someone else's. I think a better balancing act might be appropriate at this point.


DPR
Top
Posts: 1344
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:08 am

Re: How's that isolationism working for you?

Post by DPR »

I don't think our military vets will be able to give a perfect answer. Have you read the National Security Strategy from 2010? It's very ambitious, but we don't have the resources to do it all IMHO. A person with a degree in international relations could probably give you a better answer. My recommendation would be to focus on building the U.S. economy and reduce our growing debt. There won't be much we can do in the Middle East or elsewhere without a strong economy. Our economic power feeds the military power. But I do agree that we should stay engaged in the Middle East.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default ... rategy.pdf

User avatar

nafod
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 12781
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Looking in your window

Re: How's that isolationism working for you?

Post by nafod »

Random thoughts:

The place can't be fixed. Only managed.

Our goal in the ME should be to play the bad guys off of each other to keep them occupied and weak, while preserving access to oil and preventing access to nukes.

China needs that oil worse than we do. Let them expend some treasure to keep access to cheap oil, stretching out their supply lines and making themselves vulnerable.

I fear what goes on in Pakistan more than anywhere else. They're the closest point between jihadis and nukes.

Giving the jihadis a free sanctuary, whether in the tribal regions, Somalia, Anbar province, sub-sahara, Philippines, or mexico eventually results in bad news.
Don’t believe everything you think.

User avatar

DrDonkeyLove
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 8034
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:04 am
Location: Deep in a well

Re: How's that isolationism working for you?

Post by DrDonkeyLove »

nafod wrote:Random thoughts:

The place can't be fixed. Only managed.

Our goal in the ME should be to play the bad guys off of each other to keep them occupied and weak, while preserving access to oil and preventing access to nukes.

China needs that oil worse than we do. Let them expend some treasure to keep access to cheap oil, stretching out their supply lines and making themselves vulnerable.

I fear what goes on in Pakistan more than anywhere else. They're the closest point between jihadis and nukes.

Giving the jihadis a free sanctuary, whether in the tribal regions, Somalia, Anbar province, sub-sahara, Philippines, or mexico eventually results in bad news.
Somebody has been studying the Byzantines and their 1000 year empire.

In answer to HH's contemptible accusations towards R :heart: nd P :heart: aul, and the august members of this board, no one supports "utopian isolationism". Nor was it Rand Paul who failed to negotiate a force of arms agreement w/the Iraqi's or announce to the world the date we are pulling out of Afghanistan. That fella was the leader of HH's political party with an assist by the first woman president who he'll blindly support.

In fact, a person smarter than me could make a case that Iran's new found dominance can be traced right back to BushBama, not our cuddly little curly haired patriot.
Mao wrote:Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. Our principle is that the Party commands the gun, and the gun must never be allowed to command the Party

User avatar

Bob Wildes
Top
Posts: 1831
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:22 pm
Location: Heart Of Darkness

Re: How's that isolationism working for you?

Post by Bob Wildes »

nafod wrote:Random thoughts:

The place can't be fixed. Only managed.

Our goal in the ME should be to play the bad guys off of each other to keep them occupied and weak, while preserving access to oil and preventing access to nukes.

China needs that oil worse than we do. Let them expend some treasure to keep access to cheap oil, stretching out their supply lines and making themselves vulnerable.

I fear what goes on in Pakistan more than anywhere else. They're the closest point between jihadis and nukes.

Giving the jihadis a free sanctuary, whether in the tribal regions, Somalia, Anbar province, sub-sahara, Philippines, or mexico eventually results in bad news.
I concur with that. Particularly about the place, ME, can't be fixed, only managed.
"Tell A.P. Hill he must come up."


tonkadtx
Staff Sergeant
Posts: 492
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:20 pm

Re: How's that isolationism working for you?

Post by tonkadtx »

People assume because you are a Libertarian or Classical Liberal that you are completely isolationist. What I am against is Military Adventurism. Iraq was a giant cluster fuck. A strong, robust and Global Navy (and corresponding Marine Corps) showing muscle and protecting Global trade is not necessarily a bad thing, neither is a military presence in Countries we are allied with.

I think a lot more of the work of taking out scumbags should be done by special ops. If that means expanding Special Ops programs so be it.


Andy83
Sgt. Major
Posts: 2650
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:07 am

Re: How's that isolationism working for you?

Post by Andy83 »

Who is that skinny fucktard in the white house pounding his not chest boasting that Osama is dead, al queda is on the run and I ended the war in Iraq? Wasn't predicted that this shit would happen if he pulled all the troops out of Iraq?
HH your brain is so tied up in a knot with your love of Obama you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Rand Paul has nothing to do with the disaster that your party and Obama has caused in the ME.
Obama's narcissism and arrogance is only superseded by his naivete and stupidity.


Blaidd Drwg
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 19098
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:39 pm

Re: How's that isolationism working for you?

Post by Blaidd Drwg »

The US has never even trifled with Isolationism....we're not even remotely close now and we never have been.
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill


climber511
Gunny
Posts: 961
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:59 pm

Re: How's that isolationism working for you?

Post by climber511 »

I declare war against the United States of America!


OK I surrender already - now please rebuild my country!........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Well it's worth a shot - we blow up and rebuild every place else with my taxpayer money:)

User avatar

Topic author
Hebrew Hammer
Chief Rabbi
Posts: 3351
Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 11:14 pm

Re: How's that isolationism working for you?

Post by Hebrew Hammer »

I do recognize that Obama is the author of our current situation, sadly, but at least he claims he's not interventionist in principle. Only problem is that no one in the world seems to believe him. For the Rand Paul fan club, though, today's situation is the realization of their dreams.
Image


Gene
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 5385
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2005 10:18 pm
Location: Voct. США

Re: How's that isolationism working for you?

Post by Gene »

The Founder of IGx said it best, "The basis of Moral Behavior is minding one's own business".

Americans should quit wasting treasure and money middle east. Nobody appreciates our sacrifices.

Rebbe Silverman - El Al is ready when you are. Get your ass over there and fight your own damn battles!

Alternately, get over to your local Veteran's Administration Hospital. Tell those broken men why it's so important to expand their ranks saving Israel from its demographic destiny.
This space for let


Andy83
Sgt. Major
Posts: 2650
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:07 am

Re: How's that isolationism working for you?

Post by Andy83 »

Realization of whose dreams/? Wasn't it Obama who promised Utopia for the world in order to get elected the first time? I think so! Democrat voters are so fucking naive and gullible. They believe everything that fucking liar says and everything he says is a fucking bullshitting lie.
Besides, Rand Paul wears a wig and anybody knows never to trust anybody with a combover or a wig.
Obama's narcissism and arrogance is only superseded by his naivete and stupidity.

User avatar

Kazuya Mishima
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6394
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:11 pm

Re: How's that isolationism working for you?

Post by Kazuya Mishima »

Image

Image

User avatar

Kazuya Mishima
Sergeant Commanding
Posts: 6394
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:11 pm

Re: How's that isolationism working for you?

Post by Kazuya Mishima »


User avatar

Texas Red
Lance Cpl.
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:49 pm

Re: How's that isolationism working for you?

Post by Texas Red »

Bob Wildes wrote:
I concur with that. Particularly about the place, ME, can't be fixed, only managed.
The Mongols "fixed" it for a time...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_B ... %281258%29

In all seriousness, was that the last time there was relatively uniform security and stability in the region?

As for our involvement...

Frankly, we've gotten a shoddy return on our investment. Funding a benevolent empire in multiple shitholes could very well bankrupt us, with nothing to show for it.

Spreading democracy by force is largely a farce, unless you're standing on the ashes of the old civilization (Japan, Germany), and you're willing to take full measures. We had to force Japan to the brink of complete annihilation to enforce that sort of drastic shift in culture. I believe many of these Islamist cesspools would be much the same. It either takes a ruthless internal reformer (Ataturk) or a potent, outside power that's unimpeded by notions of cultural relativism (e.g., the Soviet Union, which secularized most of its Islamic nations).

Barring that type of involvement, I think most people would be satisfied with a sustainable policy of containment and manipulation, as mentioned by some of the forum Byzantines. I think the fundamental concern is that America's international clout rests solely on its military superiority, and that could very well wither in coming decades if our economy continues to slide. The first step is getting our house in order (preventing a debt Ragnarok), then learning to operate pragmatically within our means, all the while advancing our national interests (not Trotskyite dreams of spreading the revolution). Less Leo Strauss, more Machiavelli.

User avatar

Turdacious
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 21247
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:54 am
Location: Upon the eternal throne of the great Republic of Turdistan

Re: How's that isolationism working for you?

Post by Turdacious »

Texas Red wrote:In all seriousness, was that the last time there was relatively uniform security and stability in the region?
When the Ottomans ran it, before the French and British carved it up.
"Liberalism is arbitrarily selective in its choice of whose dignity to champion." Adrian Vermeule

User avatar

nafod
Lifetime IGer
Posts: 12781
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:01 pm
Location: Looking in your window

Re: How's that isolationism working for you?

Post by nafod »

Kaz, I think that's Joe Paterno in your cartoon.
Don’t believe everything you think.

User avatar

Texas Red
Lance Cpl.
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:49 pm

Re: How's that isolationism working for you?

Post by Texas Red »

nafod wrote:Kaz, I think that's Joe Paterno in your cartoon.
I thought it was Steven Spielberg (in the last three panels). He's a registered offender:

Image

Post Reply