IGX

There is a direct relationship between the resurgence in heroin and pain pills. You start on pills and soon find that heroin is both cheaper and easier to come by. There is absolutely no mystery here.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:

DARTH wrote:My point is that you have to be a fucking idiot to even consider H. I can understand being a pillhead and falling off the wagon into more pills, being an alcoholic and going back to the sauce. Those are things society says are OK at one level, so it's easy to become an addict to those things, but H?

Granted Oxy has led some to H. My Lady has a lifelong friend who had drug issues as a teen and then in her late 20's after being clean for years fell in with a group of pillheads. (The time that glamorise being addicted too.)

She ended up not being able to get Oxy and so falling to H and sucking and riding black dick to score.

So yeah, I know it can happen but he was a man of my generation and our generation knows H fucks you up, almost guaranteed. I don't have sympathy for those who get into H as I do for many other addicts.

Fire burns, stick your hand in it and scream and I just laugh.

I respect your opinion (no really, in this case..I'm trying) but the lines you're drawing around H and opiates generally are arbitrary and not based in biochemistry. Nothing monumental changes in you when slam H for the first time anymore than you are changed when you go under general anesthesia.

For sure heroin is a helluva drug and true full blown addiction is awful (when the supply runs out) But whether you're suffering from PTSD or a misplaced sense of entitlement, the war on drugs "pillhead" language undermines your point...which I think is that personal choice and consequences is at the center of the mix..not some mysterious sucking vortex,

Whether H hooks you on the first shot. (Known a few ex addicts who will say it did.) or your 10th, by 1980 anyone with any sense or 3 days out of the burbs knew H gets you hooked and the only thing generally more addictive are cigs. (One of those ex junkies claimed that was harder to kick, I believe that.)

If you knew the particular people I am talking about, Pill head is perfect for them. This crew was not a bunch of folks who had pain issues and went down the rabbit hole after being prescribed pills, this little crew was all about doing pills and celebrating it.

Imagine " Pill heads" as adamant about doing them as a "Pothead" with his "weed makes everything better!" shit.

BTW calling someone who pops pills a Pill head pre-dates the whole war on drugs, it's a slang/street term.

Hoffman was not a stupid man, you could not act on his level and be stupid but he did a very stupid thing doing H.

That's why this is not a tragedy to me, except for 3 kids without a father.

Another good actor waits in the wings for his rise.

Understanding how drugs work in real life by listening to addicts is like trying to understand the automobile from the perspective of car crash victims.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:Understanding how drugs work in real life by listening to addicts is like trying to understand the automobile from the perspective of car crash victims.

LOL! To a point I agree. The afore mentioned Pillhead would try to advocat why people should do what they did. (BTW 2 of them are now dead, a couple in prison and then there is the aforementioned whore, who is now on methadone and pregnant. YEAH! for that kid.


Done enough shit myself (Pot, pills, acid, schrooms, ect) and was smart enough to learn from the mistakes and folly of others. (No H, X, only 1 time doing Coke and Hated it!, ect.)

Not saying I trust everything any ex-junkie said, but it be stupid to form an opinion on them without knowing some.

Had many drug addicts in the family and the circle. An uncle OD'd on H. I love him but he was the fucking idiot who did the shit.

God damn finally out of Prison and he shoots up and dies at my grandmother's house, so my Mom could find his dead ass.

The Needle and Spoon claim another willing victim in Mr. Hoffman.

Hoffman was a dick

nafod wrote:Hoffman was a dick

He seemed that way, but one never knows with a public persona vs a private one.

Best is all his anti gun shit recently while buying a product whose trade puts illegal guns in the hands of ruthless fuckers and causes much death and pain. A lot more than NRA members, who he was helping Bloomberg demonise.

But Blaid's car mechanics analogy fit here well, too.

"The Seahawks will never win a SuperBowl in my lifetime"
- Philip Seymour Hoffman

kreator wrote:"The Seahawks will never win a SuperBowl in my lifetime"
- Philip Seymour Hoffman

Well then he had to die! :-)

Blaidd Drwg wrote:Understanding how drugs work in real life by listening to addicts is like trying to understand the automobile from the perspective of car crash victims.

See from where I sit the tricky part isn't understanding drugs it's understanding addicts.

ccrow wrote:

Blaidd Drwg wrote:Understanding how drugs work in real life by listening to addicts is like trying to understand the automobile from the perspective of car crash victims.

See from where I sit the tricky part isn't understanding drugs it's understanding addicts.

If you want a rational approach to drugs as either a parent or as a policy maker you have to understand both and put them in perspective. Addicts are fewer and further between than users.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:

ccrow wrote:

Blaidd Drwg wrote:Understanding how drugs work in real life by listening to addicts is like trying to understand the automobile from the perspective of car crash victims.

See from where I sit the tricky part isn't understanding drugs it's understanding addicts.

If you want a rational approach to drugs as either a parent or as a policy maker you have to understand both and put them in perspective. Addicts are fewer and further between than users.

Unless you want a Nanny State (which we now have), it's simple: Educate adults about the risks of drug use. And take all reasonable measures to keep drugs away from kids.

If people choose & lose, say, "Kids, see what drug X did to your hero/friend/favorite actor?"

johno wrote:

Blaidd Drwg wrote:

ccrow wrote:

Blaidd Drwg wrote:Understanding how drugs work in real life by listening to addicts is like trying to understand the automobile from the perspective of car crash victims.

See from where I sit the tricky part isn't understanding drugs it's understanding addicts.

If you want a rational approach to drugs as either a parent or as a policy maker you have to understand both and put them in perspective. Addicts are fewer and further between than users.

Unless you want a Nanny State (which we now have), it's simple: Educate adults about the risks of drug use. And take all reasonable measures to keep drugs away from kids.

If people choose & lose, say, "Kids, see what drug X did to your hero/friend/favorite actor?"

I would say that education about drugs is fine, and there has been plenty of that for many many years, and frankly it hasn't done a hell of a lot; what's lacking is education about addiction, which is the harder topic, but I bet it would do more good.

The only model that appears to be working in the real world is Portugal's.

I go the more technical route. We educate ABOUT drugs but what we tell most kids is a flat out lie and they know it. Drugs won;t kill you, you don;t get hooked on one hit of crack, H will not turn you into a junky, pot is a gateway to binge eating shitty food and not much else. and alcohol is the most dangerous drug you can take.

Let's be real about it:

Here's how the drug works, here's what people like about it, here's why it's dangerous. We try to do this as a country with alcohol, remember kids...I know your going to drink but just don;t drive...

why we can;t be rational and say...look kids, if you take harder drugs, don't go all in with an experienced user, titrate your doses and don't mix hypnotics and painkillers. Don't binge and always trip in safe company.

People from South America are always appalled at how much coke Americans do in a single session. They find it gauche.

WildGorillaMan wrote:People from South America are always appalled at how much coke Americans do in a single session. They find it gauche.

ZACKLY!

Slow and low, that is the tempo. Drugs are good, MMmmkkayyy?...just don't be a fucking idiot about it. Our culture generally likes to put every good thing in a feedbag. Slamming shit by the gram when a couple mg here and there is delightful.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:I go the more technical route. We educate ABOUT drugs but what we tell most kids is a flat out lie and they know it. Drugs won;t kill you, you don;t get hooked on one hit of crack, H will not turn you into a junky, pot is a gateway to binge eating shitty food and not much else. and alcohol is the most dangerous drug you can take.

Let's be real about it:

Here's how the drug works, here's what people like about it, here's why it's dangerous. We try to do this as a country with alcohol, remember kids...I know your going to drink but just don;t drive...

why we can;t be rational and say...look kids, if you take harder drugs, don't go all in with an experienced user, titrate your doses and don't mix hypnotics and painkillers. Don't binge and always trip in safe company.

That isn't being real. Some people ought not do anything. Addicts by and large do not need more information any more than somebody eating 10k calories a day needs to know more about diet.

Addicts gonna addict either way. Period. Building your plan around outliers is another piece of detritus from our victim culture that needs to go. With great drugs comes great responsibility. The drugs are here. Play the ball as it lies.

As for "being real" this is EXACTLY what we do with kids with sex and alcohol. The more realistic and honest we are people actually make decisions and modify their behavior. The status quo is so abominably stupid and bad, chances are your average high school student student knows more about the pharmacology and impacts of drugs than a mile of addiction counselors laid on end.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:Addicts gonna addict either way. Period. Building your plan around outliers is another piece of detritus from our victim culture that needs to go. With great drugs comes great responsibility. The drugs are here. Play the ball as it lies.

As for "being real" this is EXACTLY what we do with kids with sex and alcohol. The more realistic and honest we are people actually make decisions and modify their behavior. The status quo is so abominably stupid and bad, chances are your average high school student student knows more about the pharmacology and impacts of drugs than a mile of addiction counselors laid on end.

Overall I'd agree with this. Think your a little too cavalier about them but the outright lies and bullshit we were all told in school tuned out the rest of the good in the don't do drugs message.

Not to many casual H or Crack users though, pretty much all of them becomes addicts, some can be and live what seems to be honest, productive lives for sure, not all are donw at the bombed out looking drug den, or giving blow jobs for a fix.

But more than enough are, my old neighbourhood was full of them.

I want Pot legal, coke decriminalised but H, Meth and some of the harder shit still should be ilegal BUT I;d rather it all be legal than what we are doing now.

Aspirin and beer are the real gateways if we are going to blame something for something else, wich is kind of stupid and once again makes kids think "Do these assholes just make this shit up?"

DARTH wrote: Not to many casual H or Crack users though, pretty much all of them becomes addicts

Spend a little more time inside the beltway or a major metropolitan business district...it is far more common than you realize. Especially smoking either one. IV drug use (the only truly efficient way to go) is a step up in commitment.

Yeah, just in little old Saginaw I knew folks who used crack sometimes, just for kicks, and in Flint I knew some folks who would smoke or occasionally shoot H on the weekend...A CPA, an optometrist, and a dentist. You did NOT want to party with those guys. During the week, they are golfing and taking care of business. On Saturday night....I couldn't hang.

In fact, thinking about it, I only knew one stripper who was a heroin addict, the rest were all like those clowns.

DARTH wrote:

nafod wrote:Hoffman was a dick

He seemed that way, but one never knows with a public persona vs a private one.

Best is all his anti gun shit recently while buying a product whose trade puts illegal guns in the hands of ruthless fuckers and causes much death and pain. A lot more than NRA members, who he was helping Bloomberg demonise.

But Blaid's car mechanics analogy fit here well, too.

Anyone I know who knew him said he was a nice guy. I was in meetings with him over a decade ago but had no direct contact.

A good friend of his spoke at my home group tonight and mentioned him. This guy had spent the day with many of their mutual friends, and the family. Mostly normal people (as in not alcoholics or addicts).
The friend said, "He had 23 years and wanted to know why he couldn't have a glass of wine. Now he knows."
This is the,thing that is so hard to explain to normal people. If I have just a sip of wine, I can't stop. Maybe I could sip right now and no more tonight, but within a week really bad shit might happen. And this is why BD is right about the car crash victim analogy.

Fucking a. That quote is devastating.

Oooof.

Makes me wanna back pedal on my all drugs all the time stance. GBM and I have broke bread and not drank and I never questioned that he's got a damn good reason why. As much as I'm a believer in the element of choice, I'll say this..show me a man who does not believe in the power of addiction, and I'll show you a man who just hasn't found his Fix.

Again...the model for harm reduction is here. Want kids to respect the power of guns?, be honest and be real. be technical. Same with sex...hiding from scary things doesn't do any good at all. 4 years ago, i brought home a table saw and we spent a lot of time stripping it down, starting it up, running test cuts. I do not want my kids going blind into the morass of America that is equal parts binge culture and nanny state.