‘No Way To Prevent This’

Blaidd Drwg · Post by **Blaidd Drwg** » Wed May 28, 2014 3:19 am

According to the FBI stats, this country has a handgun issue. Not a gun issue, not "assault rifle" issue, not a mass murder issue. We've got a metric fuck ton of handguns used in crimes. Many of these are illegally purchased, some of these are not.

We have a legal structure that protects legal handgun ownership.
We have case law that supports it.
We have seen prohibitions of legal ownership fail (chicago, dc et al)
The shear numbers of both legal and illegally possessed handguns makes the prospect of mass confiscation ludicrous
We have a culture in both the police and military that if asked to confiscate, most would very likely refuse.

So yeah..when it comes to the actual issue that the the left is bleeting about (handguns) there is really nothing that can be done in a practical sense.

Mental health outreach OTOH....

Protobuilder · Post by **Protobuilder** » Wed May 28, 2014 4:16 am

Turdacious wrote:
buckethead wrote:
why multiple-victim public shootings are such an American problem. And of course, they are astonished when I remind them of the attacks in their own countries and point out that this is not an American problem, it is a universal problem,
Hmm. In the public place of schools, it seems I would be astonished as well.

The number of [school killings] in the US was only one less than in all the other 36 countries put together. In 13 of those countries there were no incidents at all, either actual or attempted.
http://qz.com/37015/how-school-killings ... -together/

But, I'm sure I just have bad information or am a "leftie" or a sheep. No possible way that maybe the answer isn't "more guns", and yet not "no guns".
When people do these cross country comparisons, it would seem to be more useful to compare mental health policies as well. Hopefully somebody will do a study with that in mind.

The US is less ready to discuss mental health issues than to discuss gun violence.

Grandpa's Spells · Post by **Grandpa's Spells** » Wed May 28, 2014 4:27 am

Blaidd Drwg wrote:We have seen prohibitions of legal ownership fail (chicago, dc et al)

Trotting out this crap suggests you aren't really thinking about this seriously.

Federal bans of full auto weapons have been very effective. Local bans don't work because cars exist.

The shear numbers of both legal and illegally possessed handguns makes the prospect of mass confiscation ludicrous

You don't have to, time sorts out the rest. You don't see tommy guns and BARs lying around.

So yeah..when it comes to the actual issue that the the left is bleeting about (handguns) there is really nothing that can be done in a practical sense.

Sure there is. You can acknowledge the historical role of the gun in American culture, and re-affirm the right of Americans to defend themselves from an unjust government and criminals. Keep weapons suited for self/home defense legal, ban everything else. Yes, there will still be a black market, but there are black markets in Tokyo and London as well. The prices are just too high for the average idiot.

Blaidd Drwg · Post by **Blaidd Drwg** » Wed May 28, 2014 4:33 am

Hand
Guns
Hand...Gunnnnnnnsssssss
HANDGUNS.

We don't now, nor have we ever had a fully auto epidemic, nor a SBR epidemic...nor a sawed off shotgun or silencer or flash suppressor problem. There is no rational data to support the ban on any of that. There is a rational concern about the most effective self defense weapon in the known world. Hand guns. They are as plentiful as pigeons which is why Prohibitions on HANDGUNS have been an abject failure.

Until the handwringers acknowledge that and confront the reality of that issue, it's all just smoke mirrors and poop.

Blaidd Drwg · Post by **Blaidd Drwg** » Wed May 28, 2014 4:42 am

The time sorts the rest argument is utterly ridiculous. Having drafted, implements and ultimately evaded a host of nonconformity regulations I can tell you how that plays out...Thing one, it plays out in geologic time. You'll get a greater drop in handgun violence from making AC technology available in the ghetto than banning handguns.

Thing two, as you note, the prevalence of the "grandfathered" object doesn't drop, it simply gets more valuable...so both legal and illegal guns are worth more. Perhaps this is your goal, disarm the poor.?

Blaidd Drwg · Post by **Blaidd Drwg** » Wed May 28, 2014 4:46 am

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offens ... le_08.html

when you take into account murders with non-categorized types of guns, it does not change the fact that their annual reports consistently show more lives are taken each year with these blunt objects than are taken with Feinstein's dreaded rifle

johno · Post by **johno** » Wed May 28, 2014 4:49 am

We have seen prohibitions of legal ownership fail (chicago, dc et al)
The shear numbers of both legal and illegally possessed handguns makes the prospect of mass confiscation ludicrous

If the US prison system can not eliminate or control drugs & alcohol within its walls, consider the Police State necessary to take firearms out of private hands in his country.

johno wrote: Cry it out and feel morally superior, Bro.

Grandpa's Spells · Post by **Grandpa's Spells** » Wed May 28, 2014 5:06 am

Blaidd Drwg wrote:Hand
Guns
Hand...Gunnnnnnnsssssss
HANDGUNS.

No, some specific handguns and not specific others. Nobody is mass shooting with a 5-shot .357 revolver, despite it being an excellent self-denfense tool.

We don't now, nor have we ever had a fully auto epidemic, nor a SBR epidemic...nor a sawed off shotgun or silencer or flash suppressor problem.

You guys are great at shooting down arguments nobody makes.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:The time sorts the rest argument is utterly ridiculous. Having drafted, implements and ultimately evaded a host of nonconformity regulations I can tell you how that plays out...Thing one, it plays out in geologic time. You'll get a greater drop in handgun violence from making AC technology available in the ghetto than banning handguns.

The banned guns don't disappear, they become prohibitively difficult to attain.

Blaidd Drwg · Post by **Blaidd Drwg** » Wed May 28, 2014 5:46 am

Really? ...read the FBI stats again. It's hand guns period full stop.

You're arguing autos should be banned? Self defense stops at 6 rounds? That's your whole argument? Because of mass shooting potential? That's preposterous. Horrific as mass killings are, there's nothing remotely in the numbers to suggest that is a serious public health issue. Hand guns are the only thing close.

Not only did you raise the issue of rifles full auto etc, the whole and only point worth discussing is what is a reasonable expectation for us to address handgun violence. There are nothing else worth discussing...unless you're banning hammers and fists as well.

So to recap. if it has more than 6 shots, bring on the ban?

Son, you are delusional in the extreme.

Blaidd Drwg · Post by **Blaidd Drwg** » Wed May 28, 2014 5:54 am

Discussion of handguns used in crime and/or taken inot evidence.

A study done in by the University of Pennsylvania showed that, in
Philadelphia,:

In 1985, of 91 homicides

44% .38 caliber revolver
19% .25 caliber pistol
14% .22 caliber revolver
14% .32 caliber revolver
3% 9 mm pistol
2% .357 caliber revolver

In 1990, of 204 homicides

23% 9 mm pistol
18% .38 caliber revolver
16% .357 caliber revolver
16% .22 caliber revolver
10% .32 caliber revolver

"The Virginia Department of Criminal Justice Services studied 844
homicides that occurred in 18 jurisdictions from 1989 through 1991.
Firearms were identified as the murder weapon in 600 cases. Over 70%
of the firearms used were handguns. Of those handguns where the
caliber and firing action could be identified, 19% were a .38 caliber
revolver, 10% were .22 caliber revolvers, and 9% were 9 millimeter
semiautomatic pistols."

"The Hawaii Department of the Attorney General, Crime Prevention
Division, studied 59 firearms-related homicides in Honolulu from 1988
to 1992. Handguns were used in 48 homicides (over 80%) including 11
handguns of 9 millimeter caliber, 10 of .357 caliber, 10 of .38
caliber, and 5 of .25 caliber."

Guns Used in Crime
http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature%20Art ... 0Crime.htm

Handguns Taken in Evidence in California, 1993

5,222 - .22
4,693 - .25
1,477 - .32
4,842 - .380
4,671 - .38
5,295 - 9mm
2,395 - .357
1,787 - .45

Does California Have Crime Guns?
An Analysis of Justice Department Data
http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/vprp/snsweb.html

The top 10 guns used in crimes in the United States, according to an
unpublished Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms report:

1. Smith and Wesson .38 revolver
2. Ruger 9 mm semiautomatic
3. Lorcin Engineering .380 semiautomatic
4. Raven Arms .25 semiautomatic
5. Mossberg 12 gauge shotgun
6. Smith and Wesson 9mm semiautomatic
7. Smith and Wesson .357 revolver
8. Bryco Arms 9mm semiautomatic
9. Bryco Arms .380 semiautomatic
10. Davis Industries .380 semiautomatic

America's Most Wanted Guns
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... 83,00.html

"The number one gun used in crimes during 1999 was the Smith & Wesson
.38 caliber revolver. 4.6% of all handgun crimes involved this type of
gun"

An Analytical Discussion of Gun Violence in the United States
http://www.plu.edu/~gunvlnce/facts5.html

"Q: So is it fair to say that that's the gun that is most frequently
used in crime?

Wachtel: Well, I don't know that there's a direct correlation between
that. We have reason to believe that [of] the guns most frequently
used in crime now, it has actually climbed to the 9mm pistols. But
certainly the Lorcin-380 and other relatively inexpensive .380 caliber
and 9mm pistols are very frequently used in crimes...The Lorcin's
happen to be one of them."

Interview with Julius Wachtel, Special Agent in Charge of the Bureau
of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearm's Long Beach office
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... chtel.html

Short answer that you're failing to make cheaper handguns problematic, Nickel plated Desert Eagle pimp gun...not a problem.

Blaidd Drwg · Post by **Blaidd Drwg** » Wed May 28, 2014 5:59 am

Or maybe you trust the DOJ.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF

Over 40 million handguns have been
produced in the United States since
1973.

Yeah...this issue is just gonna dry up once we get a federal ban going.

Protobuilder · Post by **Protobuilder** » Wed May 28, 2014 8:06 am

You guys do realize that you aren't even arguing the same thing, don't you? The public isn't going to get excited about people shooting somebody they know with handguns. Due to such events even make the news in the US anymore? Mass killings get people excited for about 3-10 days and that is a nice window for politicians to make grand speeches about "never letting this happen again" which spurs an increase in gun sales due to marketing campaigns based upon the "government coming to take our guns". Win-win situation for everybody involved.

Turdacious · Post by **Turdacious** » Wed May 28, 2014 9:57 am

Phaedrus wrote:
Turdacious wrote:When people do these cross country comparisons, it would seem to be more useful to compare mental health policies as well. Hopefully somebody will do a study with that in mind.
The US is less ready to discuss mental health issues than to discuss gun violence.

Because there's no lobbying $$$ in mental health.

Grandpa's Spells · Post by **Grandpa's Spells** » Wed May 28, 2014 2:28 pm

Phaedrus wrote:You guys do realize that you aren't even arguing the same thing, don't you?

Blaid's talking about stuff to make the issue seem as broad as possible, since it then seems unsolvable, but it isn't. Let's say the problem is "all handguns," we want to make it much more difficult to own them, and we want to do something about the millions of handguns already in the country.

Clamp down on regs for all handgun sales. Require all new handguns be sold in new chamberings. Ban ammunition sales of the old chamberings. Ban conversions of old pistols.

I'm not endorsing it, but this would correct the economics of cheap, easy-to-acquire handguns pretty fast, while rendering the current glut of them very expensive to own and operate.

nafod · Post by **nafod** » Wed May 28, 2014 3:09 pm

johno wrote:
nafod wrote: Johno, they have a mass shooting where you work yet?
make a concrete proposal & defend it.

I'd like to start by taking a dump in Wayne La Pierre's mouth.

WildGorillaMan · Post by **WildGorillaMan** » Wed May 28, 2014 3:11 pm

And just like *that* all the well-meaning slacktivists on social media have forgotten about the current cause celebre and are now posting tributes to the late Maya Angelou.

You could set your watch to the attention spans these days.

Blaidd Drwg · Post by **Blaidd Drwg** » Wed May 28, 2014 3:54 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Phaedrus wrote:You guys do realize that you aren't even arguing the same thing, don't you?
Blaid's talking about stuff to make the issue seem as broad as possible, since it then seems unsolvable, but it isn't. Let's say the problem is "all handguns," we want to make it much more difficult to own them, and we want to do something about the millions of handguns already in the country.

Clamp down on regs for all handgun sales. Require all new handguns be sold in new chamberings. Ban ammunition sales of the old chamberings. Ban conversions of old pistols.

I'm not endorsing it, but this would correct the economics of cheap, easy-to-acquire handguns pretty fast, while rendering the current glut of them very expensive to own and operate.

Rather the opposite. I'm looking at the ACTUAL issue.(Handguns) not the inflammation in your liberal cunt..(A short list of NON Problems from a public health standpoint: mass shootings, guns which are black and scary, sawed off shotguns, etc.)

Again Fucker....HANDGUNS...more specifically a certain subset.

Not sure how much narrower I can make it, nonetheless, you have agreed with me. Cheap disposable handguns in a small variety of calibers (9mm, .38.380, and .22) are the problem. You just proposed a solution.

All new handguns in different chambers
Ban ammo sales of those cals
Ban conversion.

You have made my point beautifully, when you look at the actual problem and propose an actual solution, you see that it's laughable. So,.......why can't we do something about this? Because nobody has the balls to accept what's fixable and not, and nobody is willing to drill down on the issue.

The government can only work indirectly on the issue by Banning new things and Taxing New things. Both of those are going to be non-starters.

Grandpa's Spells · Post by **Grandpa's Spells** » Wed May 28, 2014 4:55 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote:You have made my point beautifully, when you look at the actual problem and propose an actual solution, you see that it's laughable.

No it isn't. The manufacture of ammunition requires components that are built in factories, which are easily regulated. Ban the manufacture and sale of 9mm casings and the typical criminal/nutball shooter won't be able to get any after a pretty brief period.

I'm not endorsing the idea at all. I just think it's not serious when people claim "there's nothing to be done because guns are already out there and confiscation is impossible." It's easily fixable without confiscation if the people demand it, by regulating the factories that produce the weapons and ammunition.

Blaidd Drwg · Post by **Blaidd Drwg** » Wed May 28, 2014 4:59 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:You have made my point beautifully, when you look at the actual problem and propose an actual solution, you see that it's laughable.
No it isn't. The manufacture of ammunition requires components that are built in factories, which are easily regulated. Ban the manufacture and sale of 9mm casings and the typical criminal/nutball shooter won't be able to get any after a pretty brief period.

I'm not endorsing the idea at all. I just think it's not serious when people claim "there's nothing to be done because guns are already out there and confiscation is impossible." It's easily fixable without confiscation if the people demand it, by regulating the factories that produce the weapons and ammunition.

Ban 9mm, .38, .380, and .22? Yeah...Ummm...right.

It's easily fixable

I can draft the reg in about an hour...it will NEVER get signed into law.

Use your head, Son. Describe a single viable reg. that would accomplish anything close to your goal. There isn't one. You're attacking the wrong end, banning crack pipes instead of crack.

Batboy2/75 · Post by **Batboy2/75** » Wed May 28, 2014 5:37 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Blaidd Drwg wrote:We have seen prohibitions of legal ownership fail (chicago, dc et al)
Trotting out this crap suggests you aren't really thinking about this seriously.

Federal bans of full auto weapons have been very effective. Local bans don't work because cars exist.

The shear numbers of both legal and illegally possessed handguns makes the prospect of mass confiscation ludicrous
You don't have to, time sorts out the rest. You don't see tommy guns and BARs lying around.

So yeah..when it comes to the actual issue that the the left is bleeting about (handguns) there is really nothing that can be done in a practical sense.
Sure there is. You can acknowledge the historical role of the gun in American culture, and re-affirm the right of Americans to defend themselves from an unjust government and criminals. Keep weapons suited for self/home defense legal, ban everything else. Yes, there will still be a black market, but there are black markets in Tokyo and London as well. The prices are just too high for the average idiot.

What Federal Ban? There is currently no federal ban on full auto weapons. If you are going to talk about these issues at least read up on the subject. The Federal Government heavily regulates and taxes full auto weapons. It's the 20 or states that ban possession of full auto firearms that have done the banning. If I lived one state south in Oregon I could buy full auto weapons to my hearts content.

In the entire time the Federal Government has been issuing tax stamps and registering full auto weapons; only in one or two instances instance has a NFA full auto weapon been used in a crime and I believe the firearm in question wasn't even used. In the mean time, since the 1930s when the federal government started taxing full auto weapons, there have been thousand of crimes committed with illegal full auto weapons. All of these weapons where obtained in one of three ways (1) imported into the USA illegally or (2) stolen government or (3) the weapons were modified (the preferred method) to operate as full auto weapons. Modifying a semi auto rifle to fire in full auto is relatively easy, is undetectable and is the preferred method for obtaining an illegal full auto rifle. Again, laws enacted by gun grabbing political hacks have little impact on actual criminals.

Full auto weapons are not used in a majority of crimes because they by and large are to big to conceal. As Blaidd Drwg has pointed out, hand guns are the choice of criminals. It just so happens modifying a pistol to fire full auto is a bit more complicated than modifying a rifle. The need for advanced metal working knowledge is the reason uneducated criminals skip the whole exercise.

The 2nd amendment is not about hunting or sport shooting or even SELF DEFENSE in your home. Self defense from your fellow citizens is just part of the reason behind the 2nd amendment.The 2nd amendment main focus is about your right to defend yourself against your government. This shit isn't hard to look up and read what the founders intended etc. The right to defend yourself from a your own government and foreign governments is an unalienable human right. This right dictates that you should be able to own and bear the same military firearms the government outfits it's soldiers and law enforcement personnel with. BTW- this is the rational behind taxing full auto and other NFA items. They couldn't ban them because of the 2nd amendment, so they decided to tax them. The original $200.00 tax stamp being a very hefty tax for the 1930s.

These mass criminal shootings are rare and don't trump my and or your unalienable rights.

Grandpa's Spells · Post by **Grandpa's Spells** » Wed May 28, 2014 5:43 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote:Ban 9mm, .38, .380, and .22? Yeah...Ummm...right.

And more. Easily done once the political will is there.

It's easily fixable
I can draft the reg in about an hour...it will NEVER get signed into law.

You keep moving the goalposts around. I'm not saying this is politically viable today or a good idea. I'm saying the argument that "You can't practically limit access to guns because they're already everywhere" is false.

Use your head, Son. Describe a single viable reg. that would accomplish anything close to your goal. There isn't one. You're attacking the wrong end, banning crack pipes instead of crack.

The above would work once the political will was there. Nobody is claiming the political will is there.

Blaidd Drwg · Post by **Blaidd Drwg** » Wed May 28, 2014 5:46 pm

Jesus Tits.

Talk about moving the goal posts? Political will and clever implementation are the 2 sides of the issue. You have Nothing becuase there is nothing.

The prohibition stick is not going to work. Period. Full Stop.

johno · Post by **johno** » Wed May 28, 2014 5:54 pm

I say again, the point is not to solve the problem. It's to cry it out & feel morally superior.

Grandpa's Spells · Post by **Grandpa's Spells** » Wed May 28, 2014 6:00 pm

Batboy2/75 wrote:The 2nd amendment is not about hunting or sport shooting or even SELF DEFENSE in your home. Self defense from your fellow citizens is just part of the reason behind the 2nd amendment.The 2nd amendment main focus is about your right to defend yourself against your government. This shit isn't hard to look up and read what the founders intended etc. The right defend yourself from a your own government and foreign governments is an unalienable human right.

Agree completely.

This right dictates that you should be able to own and bear the same military firearms the government outfits it's soldiers and law enforcement personnel with.

It does not, and almost nobody believes that. Most military weapons are off-limits or extremely tightly regulated already. The 49th Civilian Bubbas don't need assault rifles to fight a regiment of Marines-turned-oppressors, because the civilians would die in a straight up fight. The Revolution! would be an insurgency. Lone Bubba doesn't need an assault rifle to fight off a SWAT team, because he'll still end up just as dead as if he had a shotgun. Having the same guns isn't an equalizer.

Dunn · Post by **Dunn** » Wed May 28, 2014 6:01 pm

johno wrote:I say again, the point is not to solve the problem. It's to cry it out & feel morally superior.

What if I feel morally superior without crying out?

IGX

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