Wild Bill: Origins of Ukrainian Ethnicity

Fat Cat · Post by **Fat Cat** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:41 am

Let's try to put aside the current hysteria for a moment and talk about something that I don't really understand: the origins of the Ukrainian ethnicity, as apart from Russian ethnicity.

Obviously today, there are some people who self-identify as "Ukrainian" and others who self-identify as "Russians", whether they live in the modern state of the Russian Federation or within the recognized boundaries of Ukraine. I think on this we agree.

Further, as I understand it, both modern Ukrainians and modern Russians trace their civilization back to what we call in English "Kievan Rus" which is the Varangian Rurik dynasty ruled federation of Slavs centered on the cities of Kiev and Novgorod.

So my question is, these people have a common origin but now see themselves as very far apart, and I want to know what your understanding is of how that happened and why.

This is not a loaded question, I am not trying to trick you, I just want to learn some history from a Russian point of view.

buckethead · Post by **buckethead** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:12 am

It could be evrything

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:23 am

Historicaly word "ukraine" ("укрАина" or "окрАина") just meant "border". Region wich bordered with other country.
There were a lot of different "ukraines" in Russia :)
They called themselves russians. And their documents were written in russian.
Poles called them "rusins", and that territory they called "Rus". (Did you read Senkevich? ).
In Russia their teritory was called Malorossia or "malorossia's ukraine" (ukraine = bordering region).
The word "Ukraine" as country first time appeared in 1921-22, it was Lenin who created this country. He attached some russian regions (such as Donetsk and Lugansk) to Malorossia and called it Ukrainian Soviet Republic. Then Stalin added some regions of Polland and Austria to it. Then Khruschev added Crimea.
Here we are, moden Ukraine.

It is very simplimistic of course.

But today's situation has nothing to do with long history, it is just nazi propaganda during last 23 years.
There grown generation on those "Bandera, Shukhevich are heroes", "Hail to the nation!", "Galichina's SS brigade are heroes!!" etc
In their official histroy they live there 140 000 years :) Google word "protoukr" :)
Rome was descendant from "ukr"s, Ovidiy wrote his poetry in ukrainian :)

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:27 am

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:29 am

There in red color territory of Cossac's republic in 1654. It was called Zaporozhskaya Sech. There wasn't word "Ukraine" yet.
In others colors teritories wich were added by tsars or commies.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:33 am

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:39 am

Fat Cat wrote:Let's try to put aside the current hysteria for a moment and talk about something that I don't really understand: the origins of the Ukrainian ethnicity, as apart from Russian ethnicity.

division took place after mongols. Some towns (Kiev, Pskov, Smolensk...) became part of Great Lithuanian princedom, some became part of Poland.
Then was Unia between Poland and Lithuanian princedom. Then was "polonisation" of that territory. In some places with success in some without...
then were diferences in languige, customs...

Todays Russia mostly descends from north russian princedoms. Novgorod mostly. Then Moscow started grow in strength.

it is really long history.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:46 am

Fat Cat wrote:Obviously today, there are some people who self-identify as "Ukrainian" and others who self-identify as "Russians", whether they live in the modern state of the Russian Federation or within the recognized boundaries of Ukraine. I think on this we agree.

I say more.
There are families in wich parents consider themselves Russians, but children called themselves Ukraininans :)

Fat Cat · Post by **Fat Cat** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:47 am

Sorry Bill, you're moving pretty quickly so I'm trying to catch up. Let's not go too fast and let modern politics color our discussion.

I do know that Ukraine really just means borderland or frontier (in Serbian "krajina" means the same thing...the borderland). I follow you so far.

Okay, so back in the day some Vikings came along and started organizing the local Slavic tribes into a federation of people who called themselves "Rus". Right? And under this dynasty founded by Rurik, they ruled much of what is now modern Western Russia and Ukraine. This kingdom or whatever was centered on the city of Kiev, and neighbors such as Poles called them "Rus" or some variant.

So it would seem clear from all that that the original people who lived in Kiev and surrounds were early Russian peoples. But somehow a divorce happened, where some of these people think of themselves as Russian and some think of themselves as Ukrainian. They also speak different languages which leads me to another question: how similar are Ukrainian and Russian languages?

And who is Senkevich?

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:33 am

Fat Cat wrote:Okay, so back in the day some Vikings came along and started organizing the local Slavic tribes into a federation of people who called themselves "Rus". Right?

I remember argued about this with Darth :) Some historics thinks Rurik is mythical man. Like Romul and Rem in Rome history.
But there certainly was Oleg. Who came from Novgorod and conquered Kiev. And make Kiev the capital of Rus.
And was Great Prince while was regent of Rurik's son Igor.

Fat Cat wrote: how similar are Ukrainian and Russian languages?

There different dialects.
I understand central ukraininans, and don't understand western, only can catch separate words.
But central ukrainian dialect also differs. And quite strong. When i see their news if dictor speaks fast i don't understand it.

Right now russians and ukrainians really different nations. This is historical fact.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:33 am

Fat Cat wrote:And who is Senkevich?

i misprinted his name. Pole author, wrote historical fiction.
Some good fiction i would say.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henryk_Sienkiewicz

WildGorillaMan · Post by **WildGorillaMan** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:48 am

Very interesting, Bill. Thank you.

It's been said that a Ukrainian is just a Russian with a drinking problem.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:58 am

WildGorillaMan wrote:It's been said that a Ukrainian is just a Russian with a drinking problem.

No, they consider themselves civilised europians now :)
it is russians are barbaric drunkards :)

WildGorillaMan · Post by **WildGorillaMan** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:15 am

Wild Bill wrote:it is russians are barbaric drunkards :)

You haven't seen my in-laws.

Sangoma · Post by **Sangoma** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:37 am

Wild Bill wrote:Historicaly word "ukraine" ("укрАина" or "окрАина") just meant "border". Region wich bordered with other country.
There were a lot of different "ukraines" in Russia :)
They called themselves russians. And their documents were written in russian.
Poles called them "rusins", and that territory they called "Rus". (Did you read Senkevich? ).
In Russia their teritory was called Malorossia or "malorossia's ukraine" (ukraine = bordering region).
The word "Ukraine" as country first time appeared in 1921-22, it was Lenin who created this country. He attached some russian regions (such as Donetsk and Lugansk) to Malorossia and called it Ukrainian Soviet Republic. Then Stalin added some regions of Polland and Austria to it. Then Khruschev added Crimea.
Here we are, moden Ukraine.

It is very simplimistic of course.

But today's situation has nothing to do with long history, it is just nazi propaganda during last 23 years.
There grown generation on those "Bandera, Shukhevich are heroes", "Hail to the nation!", "Galichina's SS brigade are heroes!!" etc
In their official histroy they live there 140 000 years :) Google word "protoukr" :)
Rome was descendant from "ukr"s, Ovidiy wrote his poetry in ukrainian :)

So, what are you saying? That Ukrainian Nation is not legitimate? Politico-geographical games are different from the national identity of Ukrainians, which goes back to at least 17th Century, when Bohdan Khmelnitsky and Petro Doroshenko led the uprising against foreign domination in 1648. Also, while "Ukraine" was referred to various regions close to the borders, from about 16th to 18th Century it has morphed to refer to the geographical region known as Ukraine today, even though in those times it had no official borders.

Fat Cat · Post by **Fat Cat** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:57 am

Wild Bill wrote:
Fat Cat wrote:Okay, so back in the day some Vikings came along and started organizing the local Slavic tribes into a federation of people who called themselves "Rus". Right?
I remember argued about this with Darth :) Some historics thinks Rurik is mythical man. Like Romul and Rem in Rome history.
But there certainly was Oleg. Who came from Novgorod and conquered Kiev. And make Kiev the capital of Rus. And make Kiev the capital of Rus.
And was Great Prince while was regent of Rurik's son Igor.

Okay, so Varangian influence is still accepted? But maybe not Rurik himself? Interesting. So can we say it is generally true that early Rus are a collision of Slavic and Norse influence? What is the modern Russian view?

Wild Bill wrote:
Fat Cat wrote: how similar are Ukrainian and Russian languages?
There different dialects.
I understand central ukraininans, and don't understand western, only can catch separate words.
But central ukrainian dialect also differs. And quite strong. When i see their news if dictor speaks fast i don't understand it.

What is Western Ukrainian influenced by? Polish? Lithuanian? What makes it different? Like is it the accent, the vocabulary, the writing? Can you understand it written? Sorry for so many questions, I like languages and language is often at the heart of ethnic identity and conflict.

Wild Bill wrote:Right now russians and ukrainians really different nations. This is historical fact.

True.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:10 am

Fat Cat wrote:Okay, so Varangian influence is still accepted? But maybe not Rurik himself? Interesting. So can we say it is generally true that early Rus are a collision of Slavic and Norse influence? What is the modern Russian view?

As far as i read most of them think Rurik was real, some Dan yarl. I forget his real name (Rurik its just russian transcription).
Some thinks he was Slav. And some think he is myth :)

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:18 am

Smet wrote:So, what are you saying? That Ukrainian Nation is not legitimate? Politico-geographical games are different from the national identity of Ukrainians, which goes back to at least 17th Century, when Bohdan Khmelnitsky and Petro Doroshenko led the uprising against foreign domination in 1648. Also, while "Ukraine" was referred to various regions close to the borders, from about 16th to 18th Century it has morphed to refer to the geographical region known as Ukraine today, even though in those times it had no official borders.

"So, what are you saying? That Ukrainian Nation is not legitimate? "
No. I said there wasn't such word "Ukraine" as a country.
As for nation, as i said division started even earlier. When those teriories became part of Great Lithuanian princedom.

"from about 16th to 18th Century it has morphed to refer to the geographical region known as Ukraine today"
Its just not true. There was Terskaya ukraine, Zabaykalskaya ukraine...

In times of Bohdan Khmelnitsky it was Sech. Not Ukraine. Did you read Senkevich? Vishnevetskiy was "Voevoda russkiy" :) And there was complaints that those cossacs raised whole Rus :)

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:24 am

Fat Cat wrote:What is Western Ukrainian influenced by? Polish? Lithuanian?

Polish mostly i think, for central part.
As for western there German and Austrian influence also. They speak very fast. I even cant say what certainly different, i almost nothing understand.

Central dialect not so different. "Cat" in russian "kot", in ukraininan "kit", etc. Not much difference. But again, when they speak fast it is harder.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:19 am

Here what says some historik about Rurik

All positions are known and ultimately, crystal clear to everyone who is even slightly interested in the topik.

Rurik is hardly a Swede (even serious Normanists favored prince of Danish origin, correlating it with Hrerikom Hedebyu of Jutland).
Who was the Varyags - an open question in science today, none of the parties at the moment there has comprehensive provings.
Scandinavian the 10th century could not bring to Russia Government because themself do not possess such.
The fact that the Slavic culture was at least not lower than the Scandinavian (and hence, the Vikings could not teach our great-great-grandfathers something revolutionary new) will tell you, any book on early medieval archeology, archaeologist, any and every major museum exhibition in the exposition centers in the country: the Hermitage, State Historical Museum - one has only to look, ask and be able to watch and listen.

Scandinavians, though, had an collosal influence on Russia, as on the whole of Europe, including the Mediterranean region - is also not a secret.
There was a lot of Scandinavians on our soil, there are burial complexes in the near Smolensk and Shestovitse near Chernigov, as well as numerous finds in the Old Ladoga.

Reverse effect undoubtedly took place. In addition to the wives, the Vikings took home clothing, jewelry, household items, oriental martial belt armor. In the Swedish Birks, Danish Hedebyu preserved the provings, nobody hides, they are well known.

Study of the problem can confidently say there is no any difference in which nationality (or of wich "tribe") was Rurik. Even if it was a Swede Erik.
He came into the existing system and culture of the state and his descendants completely melted through the one generation into the local environment.
Now, once again, the dispute with the Norman theory - it's a fight with a windmill.
The question became obsolete and no longer put in the science except in the historiographical vein. Nobody denys the above facts because of clear failure of the process.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:37 am

You see, for our historics dose not matter who was Rurik :) Dan, Swey or from some Western Slavs.
What matter it is this, is it already was some government before Rurik or not?
That Russian culture not lower than Scandinavian :))

I agree with those who saying that government already was. The certain fact of inviting Rurik means that there already was government.
imho :)

Batboy2/75 · Post by **Batboy2/75** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:47 pm

Fatcat,

A lot of Russians and Russian historians dispute the idea of a Germanic founding or Germanic ruling elite via the Vikings. The whole idea hurts their slavic pride. Who knows what crazy alternative history Bill has been taught.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:51 pm

First problem - "varyag" it is not viking :)
Second problem - nobody knows who were varyags.
Third problem - there no eviden that Rurik was real man at all. Only one that Oleg assumedly was his man (or relative).

Normanists claim they were vikings, Slavianists claims something like "It could be evrything" :))

But in documents varyags separated from vikings - it is historic fact.

PS
As for what i was taught in schooll - it was normanist theory.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:56 pm

In Nestor's chronicle (in wich Rurik first time appeared) where he described different nations , he lists:
"Урмане" Urmane (Norvegians),
"Даны" (Dans),
"Свеи" (Sweys, Swedish),
"Англиняне" (Englishmen)
"Готы" Gots (Germans)
"Варяги Русь" Varyags Rus - Separate from scandinavians as you see.
So Nestor knew who were norvegians,dans, and sweys, but he just list them among others.
So Varyags could be not Scandinavians.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:11 pm

BTW in Russian language Varyag means just mercenary. Of any kind or nation. Viking is different word.
Western historics use word Varang, but it is not Varyag.

IGX

Wild Bill: Origins of Ukrainian Ethnicity

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