Thought provoking statement about nation building

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Shafpocalypse Now
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Thought provoking statement about nation building

Post by Shafpocalypse Now »

Read in a Brit written novel that if there's one thing the Brit's know how to do, it's how to set up a country for long term stability as opposed to falling apart immediately after they left.

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Re: Thought provoking statement about nation building

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It was in the context that the US should have involved the Brits more with building up the stability of Iraq. Whereas not all former British colonies have succeeded, they do have a track record that far surpasses the US.

Then you could argue that they, too, took a crack at Afghanistan...but you can then argue that the US support of the mujaheddin is what destroyed that.

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Re: Thought provoking statement about nation building

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The key thing is they leave brits
Don’t believe everything you think.

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Re: Thought provoking statement about nation building

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Shafpocalypse Now wrote:It was in the context that the US should have involved the Brits more with building up the stability of Iraq. Whereas not all former British colonies have succeeded, they do have a track record that far surpasses the US.

Then you could argue that they, too, took a crack at Afghanistan...but you can then argue that the US support of the mujaheddin is what destroyed that.
Does the author go into the British history in Iraq and Afghanistan?
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Re: Thought provoking statement about nation building

Post by Batboy2/75 »

Or how the Brits decided to pay off insurgents in South Iraq; instead of actually patrolling or doing any nation building.

The Middle East and Africa are a fucking mess in part, because of English and French nation building in colonial times.

Fuck that turd and his book.

BTW- I have been against Nation building from day 1. Instead we should adopt the game preserve strategy.
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Re: Thought provoking statement about nation building

Post by buckethead »

I was against nation building on day 3


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Re: Thought provoking statement about nation building

Post by TomFurman »

The sun never sets on the British Empire.
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Re: Thought provoking statement about nation building

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That's because God doesn't trust them in the dark.


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Re: Thought provoking statement about nation building

Post by ccrow »

Batboy2/75 wrote:Or how the Brits decided to pay off insurgents in South Iraq; instead of actually patrolling or doing any nation building.
The Middle East and Africa are a fucking mess in part, because of English and French nation building in colonial times.
It's a shame that colonization is no longer in fashion. Countries that go through a long enough colonial period often develop enough of a civilization, culture, government, and economy that they can self govern without deteriorating into a shithole that is raped by a succession of brutal dictators.

If Iraq had become Iraqsylvania or Middle East Virginia or Bushissipi for 99 years after the first gulf war, everyone would have been better off.
But when I stand in front of the mirror and really look, I wonder: What the fuck happened here? Jesus Christ. What a beating!

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Re: Thought provoking statement about nation building

Post by Bobby »

Batboy2/75 wrote:Or how the Brits decided to pay off insurgents in South Iraq; instead of actually patrolling or doing any nation building.

The Middle East and Africa are a fucking mess in part, because of English and French nation building in colonial times.

Fuck that turd and his book.

BTW- I have been against Nation building from day 1. Instead we should adopt the game preserve strategy.
THhey are a mess because of the populations,not what we did or didn`t do.No real problems in,say Canada,Australia or New Zealand.
You`ll toughen up.Unless you have a serious medical condition commonly refered to as
"being a pussy".

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Re: Thought provoking statement about nation building

Post by Bud Charniga's grape ape »

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:Read in a Brit written novel that if there's one thing the Brit's know how to do, it's how to set up a country for long term stability as opposed to falling apart immediately after they left.
Yeah, Pakistan and Kenya are garden spots. The Brits had some successes, but it's not like their track record is perfect.

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Re: Thought provoking statement about nation building

Post by Bud Charniga's grape ape »

Bobby wrote:
Batboy2/75 wrote:Or how the Brits decided to pay off insurgents in South Iraq; instead of actually patrolling or doing any nation building.

The Middle East and Africa are a fucking mess in part, because of English and French nation building in colonial times.

Fuck that turd and his book.

BTW- I have been against Nation building from day 1. Instead we should adopt the game preserve strategy.
THhey are a mess because of the populations,not what we did or didn`t do.No real problems in,say Canada,Australia or New Zealand.
OK, but then how do you give the Brits credit for the ones that stayed halfway sane? It's almost as if cricket, gin, and bewigged judges can't explain all of, say, India's relative success either.


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Re: Thought provoking statement about nation building

Post by dead man walking »

the brits didn't build nations, they ruled colonies, which managed to become nations after bloody hell broke loose.

britain is a soggy little island that offers few lessons and is of little consequence in the world today.

shakespeare, however, was a helluva writer
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Re: Thought provoking statement about nation building

Post by Turdacious »

dead man walking wrote:the brits didn't build nations, they ruled colonies, which managed to become nations after bloody hell broke loose.

britain is a soggy little island that offers few lessons and is of little consequence in the world today.

shakespeare, however, was a helluva writer
They offered a model civil service (compared to others at the time). Countries that could adopt it effectively tended to succeed. In countries that couldn't, Things Fell Apart.
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Re: Thought provoking statement about nation building

Post by Dan Martin »

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Re: Thought provoking statement about nation building

Post by dead man walking »

Turdacious wrote:
dead man walking wrote:the brits didn't build nations, they ruled colonies, which managed to become nations after bloody hell broke loose.

britain is a soggy little island that offers few lessons and is of little consequence in the world today.

shakespeare, however, was a helluva writer
They offered a model civil service (compared to others at the time). Countries that could adopt it effectively tended to succeed. In countries that couldn't, Things Fell Apart.
white male european models are good. i can accept that.
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Re: Thought provoking statement about nation building

Post by johno »

Most of the time, most Americans oppose nation building; we don't have the patience for the long run, and have no taste for the necessary harsh measures. Germany & Japan were exceptions, but they had been relatively orderly nations and the US & Allies had the exceptional motivation of WWII, where we nearly lost our shit, and knew it. (South Korea was similar.)

IMO, we had a chance in Iraq, but walked away. Afghanistan: no chance. Most of the ME, forget it. We can only try to keep the nuts away from the nukes. And I doubt we have the seriousness of purpose to do even that.

In a Darf World, we'd just build a shitload of neutron bombs, and use them.
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Re: Thought provoking statement about nation building

Post by Bobby »

dead man walking wrote:the brits didn't build nations, they ruled colonies, which managed to become nations after bloody hell broke loose.

britain is a soggy little island that offers few lessons and is of little consequence in the world today.

shakespeare, however, was a helluva writer
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Re: Thought provoking statement about nation building

Post by Fat Cat »

dead man walking wrote:the brits didn't build nations, they ruled colonies, which managed to become nations after bloody hell broke loose.

britain is a soggy little island that offers few lessons and is of little consequence in the world today.

shakespeare, however, was a helluva writer
On the contrary, the history of the British Empire is replete with lessons for modern times.
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Re: Thought provoking statement about nation building

Post by Andy83 »

Ironic that Obmmnutz is now advocating to do what GW preached the whole time in Iraq. To build a free inclusive government because free nations don't war with each other. Why did Obama fuck it all up by pulling out of there too soon? #-o
Obama's narcissism and arrogance is only superseded by his naivete and stupidity.

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Re: Thought provoking statement about nation building

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Andy80 wrote:Ironic that Obmmnutz is now advocating to do what GW preached the whole time in Iraq. To build a free inclusive government because free nations don't war with each other. Why did Obama fuck it all up by pulling out of there too soon? #-o
The agreement to pull-out was signed under Bush.

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Re: Thought provoking statement about nation building

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stanley_white wrote:
Andy80 wrote:Ironic that Obmmnutz is now advocating to do what GW preached the whole time in Iraq. To build a free inclusive government because free nations don't war with each other. Why did Obama fuck it all up by pulling out of there too soon? #-o
The agreement to pull-out was signed under Bush.

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Oh...I should have known! #-o
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Re: Thought provoking statement about nation building

Post by johno »

stanley_white wrote:
Andy80 wrote:Ironic that Obmmnutz is now advocating to do what GW preached the whole time in Iraq. To build a free inclusive government because free nations don't war with each other. Why did Obama fuck it all up by pulling out of there too soon? #-o
The agreement to pull-out was signed under Bush.

True but irrelevant BS. We didn't stay because Obama didn't renegotiate the Status of Forces Agreement. His campaign promise was to exit Iraq, remember?

Wiki:
Army planners have privately acknowledged they are examining projections that could see the number of Americans hovering between 30,000 and 50,000, but maybe as high as 70,000, for a substantial time beyond 2011.
...
When asked by Charlie Rose in a PBS interview how big the American “residual” force would be in Iraq after 2011, Secretary of Defense Gates replied that although the mission would change, “my guess is that you’re looking at perhaps several tens of thousands of American troops”.

The US has countless (!) Status of Forces Agreements with other nations, ex. Germany, Japan, S. Korean, that are all subject to revision/renewal. Any of those nations could eject US forces, either outright or by demanding unreasonable terms. There's a certain amount of haggling & arm-twisting required to maintain these agreements. But you have to want to do it.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

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Re: Thought provoking statement about nation building

Post by johno »

Now comes Panetta, Obama's former Secretary of Defense:

In a new book, former Defense Secretary and CIA Director Leon Panetta suggests that President Obama failed to heed his advisers who wanted to leave troops in Iraq past December 2011, which may have contributed to the rise of Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS).

"It was clear to me--and many others--that withdrawing all our forces would endanger the fragile stability then barely holding Iraq together," Panetta writes in the book, an excerpt of which was published on Time.com this week.

Panetta acknowledged the difficulties of putting together the agreement that would have allowed U.S. forces to stay in the country - it had the support of various leaders in Iraq, but none who were willing to back it publicly - but also said the U.S. could have used its leverage, such as reconstruction aid money, to convince then-President Nouri al-Maliki to support a continued U.S. presence.
...
"Those on our side viewed the White House as so eager to rid itself of Iraq that it was willing to withdraw rather than lock in arrangements that would preserve our influence and interests," he said.

Obama didn't want the Status of Forces agreement and so he didn't get it.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

W.B. Yeats


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Re: Thought provoking statement about nation building

Post by Protobuilder »

Andy81 wrote:
stanley_white wrote:
Andy80 wrote:Ironic that Obmmnutz is now advocating to do what GW preached the whole time in Iraq. To build a free inclusive government because free nations don't war with each other. Why did Obama fuck it all up by pulling out of there too soon? #-o
The agreement to pull-out was signed under Bush.

-Stan
Oh...I should have known! #-o
Yeah, and you're a racist.
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