IGX

Exactly.

the more I read about it, the more I don't believe a damn thing. The details, as provided in the story, whiff on everything.

Nobody by that name in that fraternity, or worked as a lifeguard. No event at that house, and possibly the wrong house altogether. No rush, and therefore no initiation event that semester...

I may be a little off in some of those details myself now as the story continues to unravel and some people start speaking up, but it looks like at least one person made up a hell of a story.

baffled wrote:Exactly.

the more I read about it, the more I don't believe a damn thing. The details, as provided in the story, whiff on everything.

Nobody by that name in that fraternity, or worked as a lifeguard. No event at that house, and possibly the wrong house altogether. No rush, and therefore no initiation event that semester...

I may be a little off in some of those details myself now as the story continues to unravel and some people start speaking up, but it looks like at least one person made up a hell of a story.

The one thing the UVA chick, Tawana Brawley, and the Duke stripper have in common is that they've made things worse for legit sexual assault victims.

Hey, remember when Morton Downey Jr. claimed he got jumped and beatup and marked up by some neo-nazi's? He fucked that up for anyone who has legitimately had that happened to...that ain't even cool.

Disclaimer: both my wife and I went to UVa.

I've been waiting for more info to come out on this so I didn't stick my foot in my mouth, but some things are beginning to be clear. Rolling Stone wanted a story that would just flat out assassinate a school. It isn't just the alleged incident, tons of "stage setting" in the piece is massaged or utter nonsense. Nearly the only true thing is the description of the administration's policies. Of course, the local papers beat the Rolling Stone to that story by a few years, and it's hardly unique to UVa.

I was dubious about the story for multiple reasons. My wife was even less charitable. She was convinced it was full of lies from the start.
Maybe when I'm not on a phone I'll list all the inaccuracies. It'll take awhile.

This is probably dumb, but I'm going to requote myself here. Mainly for two things: One, the university's policies concern me. Two:

Did anyone watch the video I posted? Cause I think the biggest problem that is being overlooked (not just at UVA, but everywhere) is how universities try to deal with rape in-house.

syaigh wrote:You know, it wasn't the rape itself that was so disturbing (although it was), but how the admin dealt with it. And I haven't heard anyone from UVA dispute the university's policies on that.

When I was in college, a girl on my hall was brutally raped. Not a chance it was "date rape" at all. The college chose to try and sweep it under the rug and unfortunately, the local police weren't much help either. The victim ended up having to take the perp to civil court, meanwhile he was allowed to stay on campus and she got so badly harassed by the guy's friends and people who just didn't know any of the details (and assumed she was lying) she ended up leaving. I was out of town the weekend it happened. But, she was brutally beaten and she had a rug burn across her entire forehead. She was a sweet girl.

Anyway, I'm not sure if RS is caving because the fraternity denied it or what. But, I don't really believe the fraternity either. Are they saying that because it wasn't pledge week they didn't have a party?

Here's the kicker, I KNOW that there are many women out there who claim rape when it wasn't. I'm not blind to that at all. BUT, I also know that stuff like what happened in that article DO happen. And the aftermath, ie, social pressure, ineffective administrative action, lack of police involvement are very real. So, while I will be disappointed to find out if it was actually a big lie, there are a lot of points in that story that ring very true. And I would still like to hear UVA's official policy on reporting rape to the police.

The audio is pretty rough but there is a transcript of Dean Eramo's interview with a student reporter a few weeks before RS article came out. Basically, if a male student is willing to admit that he was in the wrong, then that should be taken into consideration when looking at expulsion. (Number of students expelled for rape and/or assault: zero.)

So, look at this in the context of having your daughter go to UVA: http://vimeo.com/user20932862/review/11 ... b57f3948c3

syaigh wrote:When I was in college, a girl on my hall was brutally raped. Not a chance it was "date rape" at all. The college chose to try and sweep it under the rug and unfortunately, the local police weren't much help either. The victim ended up having to take the perp to civil court, meanwhile he was allowed to stay on campus and she got so badly harassed by the guy's friends and people who just didn't know any of the details (and assumed she was lying) she ended up leaving. I was out of town the weekend it happened. But, she was brutally beaten and she had a rug burn across her entire forehead. She was a sweet girl.

You basically have several problems:
1. Rape is bad and is a crime-- it should be.
2. People accused of rape are innocent until proven guilty.
3. Rape is notoriously difficult to prove beyond a reasonable doubt (ex. Lloyd Irvin's students and Hope Solo's husband)
4. Chicks sometimes cry rape when the sex was consensual or when no actual sex happened.
5. College chicks get raped off campus too

There's no easy solution, and unfortunately, common sense solutions are not realistic. Colleges won't go back to sex-segregated dorms with curfews; they won't teach the importance of the buddy rule; and won't teach chicks ways to avoid roofie-coladas.

Does that mean the UVA guys are guilty until proven innocent, especially given the inconsistencies in the accuser's story?

Bleah. Sincerity will get me nowhere. Ok. Checking out. Really. Only curious about the admin thing.

Turdacious wrote: Does that mean the UVA guys are guilty until proven innocent, especially given the inconsistencies in the accuser's story?

I am consistently surprised by the disconnect between what syaigh's written and what people seem to think she's written. I mean she hasn't specifically disavowed the notion that the frat boys should have their peens cut off and fed to Salon's copyeditor so presumably that's what she thinks, right?

I think it was stated earlier, syaigh, that rape should be handled by the police, not the campus klown cops

Bud Charniga's grape ape wrote:

Turdacious wrote: Does that mean the UVA guys are guilty until proven innocent, especially given the inconsistencies in the accuser's story?

I am consistently surprised by the disconnect between what syaigh's written and what people seem to think she's written. I mean she hasn't specifically disavowed the notion that the frat boys should have their peens cut off and fed to Salon's copyeditor so presumably that's what she thinks, right?

Her Duke comments provide important context. Maybe Bats nailed what she meant, maybe she didn't explain them well, maybe something else-- I don't know syaigh enough to say either way.

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:I think it was stated earlier, syaigh, that rape should be handled by the police, not the campus klown cops

totally agree. The sweeping under the rug and mistreatment of victims is widespread, and practically encouraged by federal regs that require institutions to investigate and punish sexual assaults in the absence of police investigation.
Can you imagine these practices being applied to any other serious crime? The idea of a college investigating and prosecuting murder would be ludicrous.

Turdacious wrote:

Bud Charniga's grape ape wrote:

Turdacious wrote: Does that mean the UVA guys are guilty until proven innocent, especially given the inconsistencies in the accuser's story?

I am consistently surprised by the disconnect between what syaigh's written and what people seem to think she's written. I mean she hasn't specifically disavowed the notion that the frat boys should have their peens cut off and fed to Salon's copyeditor so presumably that's what she thinks, right?

Her Duke comments provide important context. Maybe Bats nailed what she meant, maybe she didn't explain them well, maybe something else-- I don't know syaigh enough to say either way.

I think the underlying question for some people is...."Did this guy do this crime?"

That's how the criminal justice system works. Prove that individual A did X....

OTOH For most people, in most situations, the questions is "WTF is going on here?"
the particulars don't really matter. What matters is that the story true or false..rings "True"...Same with the Duke players...Yes, the were exonerated,...were they up to some shady ass shit? Oh most def... rape? probably not.

An example of this idea is the classic retort I hear from law and order types all the time about the Innocence Project...."yeah..well..they might have not been guilty of that rape but they were up to something shady to draw the attention of LEO"..Of course, as individuals, we find that repugnant, who wants to be unfairly targeted? At the same time..even those of us who reflexively distrust the police understand that you very rarely draw their attention at random. We sweep up a lot of innocent people in LE, in war, in criminal investigations all the time because they were in the wrong place with the wrong people. That's not "fair" but it's understandable.

At the end of the day, the story rang true because the situation has absolutely happened in the past and much much worse things do not get reported. This doesn't justify false accusations but if it surprises you that shit like that happens, you are absolutely out of touch with reality. Holding administrations/modern feminists/activists/the greek system et al collectively responsible for creating an untenable situation is a totally legit reflex...even if it gets a little shrill....What if it were your daughter?

Put it another way..if you are the one accused of rape you have one set of worries, if it's your daughter that's accusing, you have a very different set of them and neither one of those parties can be expected to not freak the fuck out. It's what i find so laughable about the cuntfairyfembot movement bleating "RapeKulture!!!!"

Bitch please, there are almost no human behaviors we freak out about more than rape. it's so abhorrent to us that not a single person involved can be expected to act rational once the Rape Alarm goes off.

Schlegel wrote:

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:I think it was stated earlier, syaigh, that rape should be handled by the police, not the campus klown cops

totally agree. The sweeping under the rug and mistreatment of victims is widespread, and practically encouraged by federal regs that require institutions to investigate and punish sexual assaults in the absence of police investigation.
Can you imagine these practices being applied to any other serious crime? The idea of a college investigating and prosecuting murder would be ludicrous.

nothing prevents a student from taking her charges to the cops. i believe the uva story, true or otherwise, notes that the girl was counseled that she could choose to go to the cops rather than use the college's admin procedure.

colleges, because they have codes of conduct and because of federal reporting requirements, have their own disciplinary proceedings. they seem to be acting as proxy for the judicial system.

the good news is people are paying more attention. the bad news is colleges' procedures can be problematic and the emerging standard for a finding of guilty is lower than in the courts: "preponderance of evidence" is the standard, rather than "beyond a reasonable doubt."

it's awful messy: there are now a number of lawsuits against colleges by guys found "guilty" in admin proceedings.

remember, whoever is trying to sort out the truth typically is dealing with the recollections of a bunch of drunk college students. which explains why prosecutors won't pursue some allegations of rape.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:OTOH For most people, in most situations, the questions is "WTF is going on here?"
the particulars don't really matter. What matters is that the story true or false..rings "True"...Same with the Duke players...Yes, the were exonerated,...were they up to some shady ass shit? Oh most def... rape? probably not.

What shady ass shit? A bunch of rich kids had a stripper come to a party. Maybe there's something I don't know about. Young shitheads think different than older shitheads with responsibility-- and you and I are both still shitheads. Doesn't make us rapists.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:An example of this idea is the classic retort I hear from law and order types all the time about the Innocence Project...."yeah..well..they might have not been guilty of that rape but they were up to something shady to draw the attention of LEO"..Of course, as individuals, we find that repugnant, who wants to be unfairly targeted? At the same time..even those of us who reflexively distrust the police understand that you very rarely draw their attention at random. We sweep up a lot of innocent people in LE, in war, in criminal investigations all the time because they were in the wrong place with the wrong people. That's not "fair" but it's understandable.

Except that LE didn't find anything credible. I've heard the rumors about the bowtie crowd at UVA, but have no idea honestly. I went to college in the same neck of the woods as you did-- I'm guessing that neither of us have familiarity with the UVA culture-- it may not exist in the PNW. Maybe those kids come from great families and tend to get LE preference-- I don't know, neither to you. A bit of a strawman.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:At the end of the day, the story rang true because the situation has absolutely happened in the past and much much worse things do not get reported. This doesn't justify false accusations but if it surprises you that shit like that happens, you are absolutely out of touch with reality.

Except it didn't ring true because it was spectacular. Rape, IMHO, is generally simpler. Case in point-- the Central Park Five, Tawana Brawley, Duke stripper, etc... See this as well.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:Holding administrations/modern feminists/activists/the greek system et al collectively responsible for creating an untenable situation is a totally legit reflex...even if it gets a little shrill....What if it were your daughter?

And what if it were my son being unfairly accused? As I stated earlier on this thread, is that the pressure put on college administrations is unfair and questionably legal-- it's only effect is likely to be higher tuition.

Blaidd Drwg wrote: Put it another way..if you are the one accused of rape you have one set of worries, if it's your daughter that's accusing, you have a very different set of them and neither one of those parties can be expected to not freak the fuck out. It's what i find so laughable about the cuntfairyfembot movement bleating "RapeKulture!!!!"

Except I've seen both sides of it-- girls forced to fuck to support a parent's habit (generally no charges filed), and girls who cried rape because mommy and daddy disapproved of the boyfriend (charges usually filed). There's no easy answer, and I don't think I ever suggested there was.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:Bitch please, there are almost no human behaviors we freak out about more than rape. it's so abhorrent to us that not a single person involved can be expected to act rational once the Rape Alarm goes off.

Except you're completely wrong-- hardly anybody on the right or the left legitimately gives a shit about rape. You know this. I learned this when I saw university professors wearing 'I Believe Her' buttons regarding Anita Hill. They had different opinions about the chicks accusing Clinton. And those were the women who claimed to care.

Turdacious wrote:What shady ass shit? A bunch of rich kids had a stripper come to a party. Maybe there's something I don't know about. Young shitheads think different than older shitheads with responsibility-- and you and I are both still shitheads. Doesn't make us rapists.

They were close to the last straw with the athletic services dept., IIRC, before the incident.

Grandpa's Spells wrote:They were close to the last straw with the athletic services dept., IIRC, before the incident.

Well, that settles it. They're guilty.

Mods, please lock thread. Thx.

Grandpa's Spells wrote:

Turdacious wrote:What shady ass shit? A bunch of rich kids had a stripper come to a party. Maybe there's something I don't know about. Young shitheads think different than older shitheads with responsibility-- and you and I are both still shitheads. Doesn't make us rapists.

They were close to the last straw with the athletic services dept., IIRC, before the incident.

Which means what? PEDs? Academic fraud? Underage drinking?

Turd,

Your response is well intentioned and completely too inside baseball...

If you think the rape story doesn't ring true I dont know what to say...I have heard literally dozens of rape stories throughout college and young adult life, I know zero people wrongly accused of rape. I do know at least one that was an actual serial date rapist. That's just my experience. Is what it is.

Maybe I am a prude but Greek behavior as far as I have seen it, is generally shady as fuck. I haven't used the Duke boys as an example of anything other than despite their wrongful accusation, than...yes, hiring a crack whore to dance for you at a private party is pretty shady. Not illegal but not a scene I would advise my sons to hang out in.

EDIT: Here is the party invite...Clearly he's a fan of Brett E. Ellis and or IGX material and very likely a little shit that needs a fucking tune up

McFadyen e-mail

A couple of hours after the party ended, Ryan McFadyen, a member of the lacrosse team, sent an email to other players saying that he planned to have some strippers over and made references to killing them and then cutting off their skin while wearing his Duke-issue spandex and ejaculating.[27] The email began:

"To whom it may concern, tomorrow night, after tonights show, ive decided to have some strippers over to edens 2c. all are welcome.. however there will be no nudity. I plan on killing the bitches as soon as the[y] walk in and proceding to cut their skin off while cumming in my duke issue spandex . . all in besides arch and tack [two of his teammates] please respond"[28]

As for nobody caring about rape, this is not remotely a political question, the right left and spectrums to either side have nothing to do with this, I am talking about what people care about at a visceral level ..If no one cared about rape, RS would not have made any hay to begin with.


Again...everyone is hung up on particulars that will never get clearly parsed in any context, but sure as shit people are wound up over this stuff for a damn good reason.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:Turd,

Your response is well intentioned and completely too inside baseball...

If you think the rape story doesn't ring true I dont know what to say...I have heard literally dozens of these stories throughout college and young adult life, I know zero people wrongly accused of rape. I do know at least one that was an actual serial date rapist. That's just my experience. Is what it is.

I have heard several stories as well, and my guess is that it happens more than I know. I also know of guys accused of rape because of parental pressure because their little girl was dating a Mexican, or girls who didn't like mom's boyfriend and made up charges. Again, rape happens, but getting gang raped with a beer bottle while a group of rich guys cheers seems a little fantastic. There's always the Lloyd Irvin exception though...

Blaidd Drwg wrote:Maybe I am a prude but Greek behavior as far as I have seen it, is generally shady as fuck. I haven't used the Duke boys as an example of anything other than despite their wrongful accusation, than...yes, hiring a crack whore to dance for you at a private party is pretty shady. Not illegal but not a scene I would advise my sons to hang out in.

Fair enough, but they did request something else (as the Wiki article you referenced points out).

Blaidd Drwg wrote:EDIT: Here is the party invite...Clearly he's a fan of Brett E. Ellis and or IGX material and very likely a little shit that needs a fucking tune up

Couldn't agree more. Thankfully he'll have to try and explain that email for the rest of his life. Doesn't make him guilty of anything more than being an idiot though.

Blaidd Drwg wrote:As for nobody caring about rape, this is not remotely a political question, the right left and spectrums to either side have nothing to do with this, I am talking about what people care about at a visceral level ..If no one cared about rape, RS would not have made any hay to begin with.

People hate the idea of rape, but actually stopping it is a more practical matter. RS has a habit of publishing this kind of rape outrage pron-- because investigating actual rape makes bad copy or something. Right and left political pressure (law and order v. political correctness) legit get in the way though IMHO. We probably won't agree on this. Asi es la vida.

Turdacious wrote: People hate the idea of rape, but actually stopping it is a more practical matter. Right and left political pressure (law and order v. political correctness) legit get in the way though IMHO. We probably won't agree on this. Asi es la vida.

I think we actually do agree, and politics fully gets in the way. IMO..I think the PC side is probably more to blame than not because it tends to treat women an non-autonomous irresponsible beings.

I just dont invest much stock in the facts of these cases individually..The facts become obsolete as soon as the news trucks arrive....The damage is done, the whole thing's a fucking mess and flailing around in the streets on either side of the argument accomplishes very little (hello? Ferguson?).

Where I think energy is well spent is trying to parse the legit motivations of the people freaking out on either side.

As far as the Duke thing:
Lacrosse players are shitbags.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/05/29/nyreg ... trial.html

It doesn't always make the press, but here's one example.

And since the main topic here is UVa, didn't they have a wee incident involving a lacrosse player a few years ago?

From PM I sent Syaigh after her exchange with Bats got started:

So, when I played at Hofstra, guys on the lacrosse team would send roommates and friends home ahead of them when they knew they were getting a woman to go back to their place. The other guys would get in the closet and wait for a show. Word got out, and women were known to have checked the closet upon going home with a lacrosse player.
(No, I didn't participate in any of this. I definitely didn't fit in with the team, and have always suspected that had a lot to do with my getting cut in my second year.)

And Duke hired my old coach, John Danowski, whose son was on the team at the time of the false rape charge, after it all blew over.

How is that for a little context?

And how many stories don't get out?

I'm not trying to justify the incredibly shitty journalism of Rolling Stone, and I realize we've gone a little off topic.
Just don't act as if these are poor choir boys being accused for no reason at all.

The Ginger Beard Man wrote:How is that for a little context?

And how many stories don't get out?

I'm not trying to justify the incredibly shitty journalism of Rolling Stone, and I realize we've gone a little off topic.
Just don't act as if these are poor choir boys being accused for no reason at all.

Same logic is used when people are pulled over for DWB.

I've heard the rumors about the bowtie crowd at UVA, but have no idea honestly. I went to college in the same neck of the woods as you did-- I'm guessing that neither of us have familiarity with the UVA culture-- it may not exist in the PNW. Maybe those kids come from great families and tend to get LE preference-- I don't know, neither to you. A bit of a strawman.

UVa is a fairly large school for these parts. Almost 22,000. Common threads I see in comments about the story range from "What do you expect from a bunch of ignorant rednecks?" to "typical behavior from entitled rich white boys whose fabulously wealthy lawyer parents will shield them from all consequences." Tricky for both to be true. (maybe Duck Dynasty gone bad I guess?)

It's a state school. The idea that it's full of rich insiders is just conspiracy theory bunk. In all my time there I only knew one bonafide "famous family" guy, and he was an out-of-state student. A Hapsburg.

I get the impression an astonishing number of people think Animal House was a documentary.

Oh- also the coat and tie tradition is sadly fading. Football coach has been working for years to get everybody at the games to wear orange t shirts to get an intimidating wall of orange. Too bad.