Turdacious wrote:Another factor-- the 'torture' we use is far more humane that the torture used in other places, or the torture used in the past.
Humane torture? I want you to make a conscious effort to not be an idiot.
Not all torture is created equal.
Not all torture is executed equally but the aim of all torture is the same.
The "effective" part of torture is psychological....the impact it leaves on the victim 9/10 times is going to be permanent damage regardless of how intact we leave their body. There's no moral high ground to be had in this swamp.
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill
"That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy.
It is our job to see that it stays there." - George Orwell
Turdacious wrote:Another factor-- the 'torture' we use is far more humane that the torture used in other places, or the torture used in the past.
Humane torture? I want you to make a conscious effort to not be an idiot.
Not all torture is created equal.
Not all torture is executed equally but the aim of all torture is the same.
The "effective" part of torture is psychological....the impact it leaves on the victim 9/10 times is going to be permanent damage regardless of how intact we leave their body. There's no moral high ground to be had in this swamp.
By your argument, we might as well go back to the old methods.
"Liberalism is arbitrarily selective in its choice of whose dignity to champion." Adrian Vermeule
Not at all. By my argument, we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking what we're doing is better or worse. We should think in terms of effective. The old methods are no more effective than the new ones by most estimations.
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill
Blaidd Drwg wrote:Not at all. By my argument, we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking what we're doing is better or worse. We should think in terms of effective. The old methods are no more effective than the new ones by most estimations.
Yet the tortured now leave with both testicles and all their toes. As you say, same results; less physical damage. Progress.
"Liberalism is arbitrarily selective in its choice of whose dignity to champion." Adrian Vermeule
Blaidd Drwg wrote:Not at all. By my argument, we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking what we're doing is better or worse. We should think in terms of effective. The old methods are no more effective than the new ones by most estimations.
Yet the tortured now leave with both testicles and all their toes. As you say, same results; less physical damage. Progress.
Same results=none. You can't argue improvement in multiplying by zero.
Progressions in effectiveness would be interesting, progressions in the morality of breaking a man? Yeah..umm..wrong metric.
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill
Well, I'll state my position. I think we lose more by doing this shit than we gain. And it is un-American.
I mean seriously, the benefits realized from force feeding some guy up his asshole versus the downside of being the people who force feed other people up their assholes?
Although I am sure there's a new porn video in the works as I type. Title?
Blaidd Drwg wrote:Not at all. By my argument, we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking what we're doing is better or worse. We should think in terms of effective. The old methods are no more effective than the new ones by most estimations.
Yet the tortured now leave with both testicles and all their toes. As you say, same results; less physical damage. Progress.
Same results=none. You can't argue improvement in multiplying by zero.
Progressions in effectiveness would be interesting, progressions in the morality of breaking a man? Yeah..umm..wrong metric.
Do you make the same argument about war? Does it matter why or when we kill? War is hell.
"Liberalism is arbitrarily selective in its choice of whose dignity to champion." Adrian Vermeule
nafod wrote:Well, I'll state my position. I think we lose more by doing this shit than we gain. And it is un-American.
I mean seriously, the benefits realized from force feeding some guy up his asshole versus the downside of being the people who force feed other people up their assholes?
I think the view sometimes varies depending on your altitude.
"Liberalism is arbitrarily selective in its choice of whose dignity to champion." Adrian Vermeule
Blaidd Drwg wrote:Not at all. By my argument, we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking what we're doing is better or worse. We should think in terms of effective. The old methods are no more effective than the new ones by most estimations.
Yet the tortured now leave with both testicles and all their toes. As you say, same results; less physical damage. Progress.
Same results=none. You can't argue improvement in multiplying by zero.
Progressions in effectiveness would be interesting, progressions in the morality of breaking a man? Yeah..umm..wrong metric.
Do you make the same argument about war? Does it matter why or when we kill? War is hell.
I wouldn't have to apply the same standard but as luck would have it , I did. I did it in the preceding paragraphs...
War it utterly immoral. Morals are poorly suited to ideas about survival. War is not moral, but it is effective and it is necessary. Torture is neither...
But let's say torture was both effective and necessary. It would still be a uniquely obtuse thing to argue (ala' angels on the head of a pin) whether cutting off a man's balls or his fingers in order to break his spirit is more or less moral. Once you're in, you're fucking in it. Best to stay out of it as long as possible.
If you are caught unprepared by a sudden rainstorm, you should not run foolishly down the road or hide under the eves of houses. You are going to get soaked either way. Accept that from the beginning and go on your way. This way you will not be distressed by a little rain. Apply this lesson to everything.
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill
Blaidd Drwg wrote:I wouldn't have to apply the same standard but as luck would have it , I did. I did it in the preceding paragraphs...
War it utterly immoral. Morals are poorly suited to ideas about survival. War is not moral, but it is effective and it is necessary. Torture is neither...
But let's say torture was both effective and necessary. It would still be a uniquely obtuse thing to argue (ala' angels on the head of a pin) whether cutting off a man's balls or his fingers in order to break his spirit is more or less moral. Once you're in, you're fucking in it. Best to stay out of it as long as possible.
Fair enough, and I appreciate the honest and well thought out answer. Obviously I disagree. I think we agree that there are no easy answers.
"Liberalism is arbitrarily selective in its choice of whose dignity to champion." Adrian Vermeule
fbi wouldn't go near cia interrogations, i have heard. contempt for both the methods and results--or lack thereof.
the only reason to consider torture is to get quicker and better intelligence that will save ourlives right now. i haven't heard anything to make me think we go info we wouldn't have otherwise. if we did, no noone, not even dick cheney, has made a convincing case.
your principles are what guide you when things are going sideways.
Really Big Strong Guy: There are a plethora of psychopaths among us.
dead man walking wrote: if we did, no noone, not even dick cheney, has made a convincing case.
This is what I don't get....Where is the credible case FOR....
There is a lot of info out their that show torture is pretty ineffective. There has to be..absolutely has to be... some unclassified information that shows that yes, waterboarding will yielded x results in x number of cases and here's why.
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill
Blaidd Drwg wrote:
I think it's a cop out (and also somewhat unknowable) to say we sleep well because they operate this way, but it certainly gives no one with a brain pause that this is how shit gets done. Once again, the great "problem" is not that they do it, it's that we lie to ourselves about it.
Given how AQ/ISIS/ISIL treat those within their reach, it's not hard to project how they would treat us. And the public lies to itself about who protects it & what it takes to get the job done. Certain politicians exploit this.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Blaidd Drwg wrote:
I think it's a cop out (and also somewhat unknowable) to say we sleep well because they operate this way, but it certainly gives no one with a brain pause that this is how shit gets done. Once again, the great "problem" is not that they do it, it's that we lie to ourselves about it.
Given how AQ/ISIS/ISIL treat those within their reach, it's not hard to project how they would treat us. And the public lies to itself about who protects it & what it takes to get the job done. Certain politicians exploit this.
I'd argue all Politicians exploit it in one direction or degree.
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill
Somewhat tangentially related...I'm surprised we're even having the fucking conversation because I wouldn't though it was possible to find a reasonably intellegent, trustworthy individual of free will willing to do the crazy fucking shit they were doing to another human being. Where do these fucking people come from? That some guy is willing to grind up some food and force it up another man's ass along with the other crazy ass shit well, he ain't coming over to my house for Christmas fucking dinner.
Shapecharge wrote:Somewhat tangentially related...I'm surprised we're even having the fucking conversation because I wouldn't though it was possible to find a reasonably intellegent, trustworthy individual of free will willing to do the crazy fucking shit they were doing to another human being. Where do these fucking people come from? That some guy is willing to grind up some food and force it up another man's ass along with the other crazy ass shit well, he ain't coming over to my house for Christmas fucking dinner.
but you'd be texting that same dude on the DL....
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill
I force things up (some) people's asses all the time. Bro.
"That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy.
It is our job to see that it stays there." - George Orwell
Shapecharge wrote:Somewhat tangentially related...I'm surprised we're even having the fucking conversation because I wouldn't though it was possible to find a reasonably intellegent, trustworthy individual of free will willing to do the crazy fucking shit they were doing to another human being. Where do these fucking people come from? That some guy is willing to grind up some food and force it up another man's ass along with the other crazy ass shit well, he ain't coming over to my house for Christmas fucking dinner.
According to the report, they found fuckups with anger issues. They did not use people trained in anything close to the requisite area.
One of the downsides of the Internet is that it allows like-minded people to form communities, and sometimes those communities are stupid.
Grandpa's Spells wrote:Interesting that we have Cheney going on TV and asserting things that appear at this point to be demonstrably false.
Did he say that? I've only seen part of the interview but it appeared that he was saying that it's bullshit the report was released, insinuating it was political and that torture was effective. Did he actually deny any part of it?
WildGorillaMan wrote:Enthusiasm combined with no skill whatsoever can sometimes carry the day.
In all seriousness fuck all of your arguments on this subject...
I have dead friends. I have friends with no legs or arms or eyes. I can name 20 peple including myself who are deaf in an ear or two.
Any, and i do mean ANY means that leads to those things not happening to a soldier, contractor or civilian at home or deployed is good by me.
"I am the author of my own misfortune, I don't need a ghost writer" - Ian Dury
tough old man wrote:In all seriousness fuck all of your arguments on this subject...
I have dead friends. I have friends with no legs or arms or eyes. I can name 20 peple including myself who are deaf in an ear or two.
Any, and i do mean ANY means that leads to those things not happening to a soldier, contractor or civilian at home or deployed is good by me.
Among the tortured were people known to be innocent. Some were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Others had relatives who were wanted for questioning (or torture).
Nowadays if a person in a country occupied by the US sees a US soldier on patrol and decides to take them out because "any means that lead to those things not happening to a member of my family or community is good by me", it wouldn't be right but I would understand.
WildGorillaMan wrote:Enthusiasm combined with no skill whatsoever can sometimes carry the day.
tough old man wrote:In all seriousness fuck all of your arguments on this subject...
I have dead friends. I have friends with no legs or arms or eyes. I can name 20 peple including myself who are deaf in an ear or two.
Any, and i do mean ANY means that leads to those things not happening to a soldier, contractor or civilian at home or deployed is good by me.
Among the tortured were people known to be innocent. Some were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Others had relatives who were wanted for questioning (or torture).
Nowadays if a person in a country occupied by the US sees a US soldier on patrol and decides to take them out because "any means that lead to those things not happening to a member of my family or community is good by me", it wouldn't be right but I would understand.
And what about the people trying to make a religious pilgrimage to Karbala who are killed by suicide bombers, or those trying to watch a marathon in Boston? While you're at it, you might want to look up some of the torture policies used by the organizations and regimes we've gone after.
"Liberalism is arbitrarily selective in its choice of whose dignity to champion." Adrian Vermeule
