IGX

Anyone ever had any experiences with this, either yourself or someone close to you, positive or negative?

Someone very close to me suffers from clinical depression, which has both a physical and mental affect on them. When I read about CBT, it seems to espouse the same things I try to explain to this person on a daily basis; things that come naturally to me, i.e. how to think, how to break down your thoughts, how to view life, events, emotions etc.

I'd be very interested in hearing anyone's experiences.

My daughter developed pretty severe ocd in the third grade after being bullied by our neighbor's kids for a few years. The cbt worked wonders for her. So did threatenening said kids with a baseball bat.

Syaigh, thanks for that.

The person in question is my wife, and although she has severe OCD (can't shower/sleep etc. if the flat isn't spotless), has a host of other issues as well including depression. She still holds on to a huge amount of resentment from her childhood against her parents and siblings, although weirdly gets on well with all of them and is very attached to them.

It affects her everyday life, and obviously affects mine as well. Every now and again there'll be a flash of logic, and she'll say to me "I'm going to stop blaming x and focus on achieving y instead", but that's a rarity, and forgotten as soon as it's been said. When things don't go perfectly, she'll blame anything but herself, and shut down. She's certainly made progress since we've been married, but I can't see her ever being truly happy and enjoying life and feeling accomplished, until she teaches herself how to think and how to view the world through a different lens.

I have been looking into this, for myself, Beej. I have been living with depression for many, many years, along with a cocktail of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, Catastrophic Thoughts, and what I suspect might be high-functioning Asperger's.

I've had many therapists, and I've been diagnosed as being bi-polar, clinically depressed, etc. I've taken all kinds of medications for this shit, but I'm not, currently. Not currently seeing a therapist either, but I'd like to. I like the idea of taking an objective look at my thoughts and behaviors, and doing the work of cognitive restructuring to reprogram myself. It seems like a viable treatment option.

Kenny, you sound very similar to my wife (I hope that doesn't come across as patronising, it wasn't intended to). I suspect she is bi-polar and clinically depressed although she's never been formally diagnosed, and she has a father and brother with high functioning aspergers (again not formally diagnosed), so it wouldn't surprise me if she has that too.

From experience of living with my wife, the fact that you've identified the issues, and potential solutions, is IMO a huge huge step.

She suffers from a host of physical issues as well - migraines, reflux, nausea, low blood sugar levels etc. She's been prescribed medication for the above, but it would make her put on weight, and occasionally led to incredibly dark periods.

She recognises that she has depression, but it completely unable to address the underlying issues. I struggle to understand what she goes through in her head, but when it gets really bad, it's gut wrenching to watch someone you love go through that.

I'm thinking of ordering this, and trying to work through it with her bit by bit;

This is a very good one that I own.

Beer Jew wrote:Kenny, you sound very similar to my wife (I hope that doesn't come across as patronising, it wasn't intended to). I suspect she is bi-polar and clinically depressed although she's never been formally diagnosed, and she has a father and brother with high functioning aspergers (again not formally diagnosed), so it wouldn't surprise me if she has that too.

From experience of living with my wife, the fact that you've identified the issues, and potential solutions, is IMO a huge huge step.

She suffers from a host of physical issues as well - migraines, reflux, nausea, low blood sugar levels etc. She's been prescribed medication for the above, but it would make her put on weight, and occasionally led to incredibly dark periods.

She recognises that she has depression, but it completely unable to address the underlying issues. I struggle to understand what she goes through in her head, but when it gets really bad, it's gut wrenching to watch someone you love go through that.

I'm thinking of ordering this, and trying to work through it with her bit by bit;

Didn't come across that way, at all, no worries.

The meds never agreed with me. Especially the Paxil- that stuff made me have auditory hallucinations until they dialed-in my dosage, and once they did, it basically turned me into a zombie who couldn't feel anything.

I combat my issues with exercise, trying to get a solid night's sleep every night, eating well, and positive self-talk and self-analysis.

What I've had to do is learn how to view myself, my thoughts, my reactions to stimuli, my emotions, my actions, etc. from the viewpoint of a non-partisan, third-party observer. That helps me a lot, because instead of being swept away by the undertow, I can almost remain above it, undisturbed, when it gets bad...

...but it doesn't always work. If I fail to be vigilant, a trigger can happen and in the blink of an eye I'm either in the midst of a catastrophic low, or I'll have a bad anxiety attack.

I like the idea of CBT because I am at peace with me. True, I didn't ask to be born this way, but my mind is a pretty amazing thing, I do amazing things with it, and if this is what comes along with it, well, I have to accept it and be at peace with it, and do my best to figure it out, and still try and improve myself, you know? And if CBT can help me get to the bottom of my issues and help me restructure my own thoughts so that I can think better, well then, that beats the Hell out of medication in my opinion.

The Soon-To-Be Mrs. Kenny X is very supportive. She understands where I'm coming from, my issues, and she has told me that she feels that I am perfect just the way I am. That helps me a lot, having her love me as unconditionally as she can, and accept me, with all these faults. Knowing I do my best every day to work with these issues, and work through them, on my own, I believe, helps her a lot with that.

This situation doesn't have to ever be hopeless.

CBT works well for a lot of people. Expect to pay for what you get.

Bud Charniga's grape ape wrote:Expect to pay for what you get.

What do you mean?

Good practitioners aren't cheap.

Bud Charniga's grape ape wrote:Good practitioners aren't cheap.

100% True. One practitioner I found here goes for $150/hr.

...That's kind of why I've been left up to my own devices, in terms of reading about it and trying to help myself. I can't really afford to spend that kind of money on weekly visits, or even bi-weekly, right now.

CBT therapy is available free on the NHS here, provided you can convince your GP that you need it. I wanted to gently introduce the concepts to her before I broached the idea of therapy.

I'm very uncomfortable with this thread.

Can't you find a different foum to spill your guts on, BJ??

as i recall, fat cat knows about behavioral therapy and is a proponent of morita therapy. (you'll have to use google.) in previous threads about how crazy we all are, he recommended the book contructive living by david k. reynolds. the book is based on morita therapy. it is short, clear, and sensible. no primal screaming or group sex.

some here have read it and recommended it.

a search heare for fat cat and constructive living or fat cat and morita therapy might yield something useful.

dead man walking wrote:as i recall, fat cat knows about behavioral therapy and is a proponent of morita therapy. (you'll have to use google.) in previous threads about how crazy we all are, he recommended the book contructive living by david k. reynolds. the book is based on morita therapy. it is short, clear, and sensible. no primal screaming or group sex.

some here have read it and recommended it.

a search heare for fat cat and constructive living or fat cat and morita therapy might yield something useful.

I'm going to look that up.

TL;DR CBT/CL is great if your problems aren't really problems.



I think Morita Therapy (the foundational core of this stuff) is much much better than CBT/CL. I gotta say that, to my mind, CBT/CL ignores the one thing that is CRUCIAL to Morita and Naikan Therapy: the almost total withdrawal of the patient from sensory and social input.

Morita took people who were freaking out and put them in isolation and forced rest for days. He did this for two reasons: 1) to see if they were schizoid and 2) to allow the mind/brain/nervous system to decompress. If the patient didn't respond after the first few days by spontaneously and slowly increasing activity and desire for social interaction, it was most likely schizophrenia at the root... If the patient responded on his/her own then Morita slowly re-integrated them into a role in society.

It seems to me that what we consider CBT is merely the counseling Morita patients got as they were re-introduced to society: independent of and after the healing process had begun. The actual treatment was the withdrawal from sensory input and societal pressures...

My point is, that per Morita, Anxiety based disorders are due to a failure (genetic/chemical/intellectual/emotional???) to deal with the pressures of society... But, once the symptoms become strong enough to merit treatment, awareness of the situation is not enough. There is a real and powerful physiological component to Anxiety and once present it can not be thought away. The proper course of treatment is withdrawal from the offending stimuli.

Personal anecdote coming feel free to ignore!

About a year ago my father died and it was the usual shit show. His actual passing was quick and surrounded by family so that was a blessing. But the 3-4 years of physical and w/ 20/20 hindsight mental deterioration (he started from a terrifyingly high peak) were not enjoyable. He was obsessed with his health as only a sick MD can be and lashed out at my mother and me (I was the only one dumb enough to stick around and take care of them) pretty much constantly. Like I said, it was the usual shit show of blame other people and focus rage on their shortcomings... You all can probs imagine how well my neurotic and high-strung ass took this... Anyway, I found myself in the middle of frequent panic attacks and with a full blown ANXIETY DISORDER (lulz not lulz). And by disorder I mean my physical symptoms (pulse/bp etc) during an attack were so bad I hid them instead of being hospitalized. I took the meds and they let me function professionally and take care of the family...

I also went to CBT and really bought in intellectually and "did the work" but I swear to fucking god sitting alone in a room and writing down how shitty you feel and how you want to run to the ER because you are concerned you are going to die and how your father is telling you (quite skillfully) what a failure you are in life and how unfair it is that he is the one who has to die and how trapped by the situation you feel AND AT THE SAME TIME admitting and accepting that it is all in my head and if I just got on with shit I would be fine... Well, it kinda didn't work so well and had a non-therapeutic effect... Not to mention my therapist was a sex bomb of a 28 yr old former DI soccer player. Yeah, cataloging my issues with her was GREAT FUN! I remember sitting in my car before going in to see her and shaking uncontrollably and crying and punching myself in the leg telling myself to not be such a pussy and get in there and do what has to be done!

Then my father died and that part was as good as something like that can be... And things stayed the same with my anxiety until I keyed into the Morita isolation thing and shut it all down for 2 weeks straight. The first week I just slept and laid around in a dark and quiet house 24/7. I know right? The start of the second week I began to stretch and clean up... By the end of the second week I began to talk to people again. It was still a long road back from there and most of that was learning how to withdraw from what set me off and not getting on with things...

And you know what, CBT would be fine now, and things are good again but I am not a 20 gallon tank of water that is just a tiny tiny tiny bit of additional heat away from boiling over at all times either... What works is limiting my exposure to external stimulus.

TL;DR CBT is great if your problems aren't really problems.

Fuck me! I AM the most well-adjusted of the bunch here. I thought that was just my megalomania talking.

We're still on for camping this weekend, right?

bennyonesix wrote:TL;DR CBT/CL is great if your problems aren't really problems.



I think Morita Therapy (the foundational core of this stuff) is much much better than CBT/CL. I gotta say that, to my mind, CBT/CL ignores the one thing that is CRUCIAL to Morita and Naikan Therapy: the almost total withdrawal of the patient from sensory and social input.

Morita took people who were freaking out and put them in isolation and forced rest for days. He did this for two reasons: 1) to see if they were schizoid and 2) to allow the mind/brain/nervous system to decompress. If the patient didn't respond after the first few days by spontaneously and slowly increasing activity and desire for social interaction, it was most likely schizophrenia at the root... If the patient responded on his/her own then Morita slowly re-integrated them into a role in society.

It seems to me that what we consider CBT is merely the counseling Morita patients got as they were re-introduced to society: independent of and after the healing process had begun. The actual treatment was the withdrawal from sensory input and societal pressures...

My point is, that per Morita, Anxiety based disorders are due to a failure (genetic/chemical/intellectual/emotional???) to deal with the pressures of society... But, once the symptoms become strong enough to merit treatment, awareness of the situation is not enough. There is a real and powerful physiological component to Anxiety and once present it can not be thought away. The proper course of treatment is withdrawal from the offending stimuli.

Personal anecdote coming feel free to ignore!

About a year ago my father died and it was the usual shit show. His actual passing was quick and surrounded by family so that was a blessing. But the 3-4 years of physical and w/ 20/20 hindsight mental deterioration (he started from a terrifyingly high peak) were not enjoyable. He was obsessed with his health as only a sick MD can be and lashed out at my mother and me (I was the only one dumb enough to stick around and take care of them) pretty much constantly. Like I said, it was the usual shit show of blame other people and focus rage on their shortcomings... You all can probs imagine how well my neurotic and high-strung ass took this... Anyway, I found myself in the middle of frequent panic attacks and with a full blown ANXIETY DISORDER (lulz not lulz). And by disorder I mean my physical symptoms (pulse/bp etc) during an attack were so bad I hid them instead of being hospitalized. I took the meds and they let me function professionally and take care of the family...

I also went to CBT and really bought in intellectually and "did the work" but I swear to fucking god sitting alone in a room and writing down how shitty you feel and how you want to run to the ER because you are concerned you are going to die and how your father is telling you (quite skillfully) what a failure you are in life and how unfair it is that he is the one who has to die and how trapped by the situation you feel AND AT THE SAME TIME admitting and accepting that it is all in my head and if I just got on with shit I would be fine... Well, it kinda didn't work so well and had a non-therapeutic effect... Not to mention my therapist was a sex bomb of a 28 yr old former DI soccer player. Yeah, cataloging my issues with her was GREAT FUN! I remember sitting in my car before going in to see her and shaking uncontrollably and crying and punching myself in the leg telling myself to not be such a pussy and get in there and do what has to be done!

Then my father died and that part was as good as something like that can be... And things stayed the same with my anxiety until I keyed into the Morita isolation thing and shut it all down for 2 weeks straight. The first week I just slept and laid around in a dark and quiet house 24/7. I know right? The start of the second week I began to stretch and clean up... By the end of the second week I began to talk to people again. It was still a long road back from there and most of that was learning how to withdraw from what set me off and not getting on with things...

And you know what, CBT would be fine now, and things are good again but I am not a 20 gallon tank of water that is just a tiny tiny tiny bit of additional heat away from boiling over at all times either... What works is limiting my exposure to external stimulus.

TL;DR CBT is great if your problems aren't really problems.

FRAT

I'm with Beer Jew, it's all my wife's fault.

Kazuya Mishima wrote:

bennyonesix wrote:TL;DR CBT/CL is great if your problems aren't really problems.



I think Morita Therapy (the foundational core of this stuff) is much much better than CBT/CL. I gotta say that, to my mind, CBT/CL ignores the one thing that is CRUCIAL to Morita and Naikan Therapy: the almost total withdrawal of the patient from sensory and social input.

Morita took people who were freaking out and put them in isolation and forced rest for days. He did this for two reasons: 1) to see if they were schizoid and 2) to allow the mind/brain/nervous system to decompress. If the patient didn't respond after the first few days by spontaneously and slowly increasing activity and desire for social interaction, it was most likely schizophrenia at the root... If the patient responded on his/her own then Morita slowly re-integrated them into a role in society.

It seems to me that what we consider CBT is merely the counseling Morita patients got as they were re-introduced to society: independent of and after the healing process had begun. The actual treatment was the withdrawal from sensory input and societal pressures...

My point is, that per Morita, Anxiety based disorders are due to a failure (genetic/chemical/intellectual/emotional???) to deal with the pressures of society... But, once the symptoms become strong enough to merit treatment, awareness of the situation is not enough. There is a real and powerful physiological component to Anxiety and once present it can not be thought away. The proper course of treatment is withdrawal from the offending stimuli.

Personal anecdote coming feel free to ignore!

About a year ago my father died and it was the usual shit show. His actual passing was quick and surrounded by family so that was a blessing. But the 3-4 years of physical and w/ 20/20 hindsight mental deterioration (he started from a terrifyingly high peak) were not enjoyable. He was obsessed with his health as only a sick MD can be and lashed out at my mother and me (I was the only one dumb enough to stick around and take care of them) pretty much constantly. Like I said, it was the usual shit show of blame other people and focus rage on their shortcomings... You all can probs imagine how well my neurotic and high-strung ass took this... Anyway, I found myself in the middle of frequent panic attacks and with a full blown ANXIETY DISORDER (lulz not lulz). And by disorder I mean my physical symptoms (pulse/bp etc) during an attack were so bad I hid them instead of being hospitalized. I took the meds and they let me function professionally and take care of the family...

I also went to CBT and really bought in intellectually and "did the work" but I swear to fucking god sitting alone in a room and writing down how shitty you feel and how you want to run to the ER because you are concerned you are going to die and how your father is telling you (quite skillfully) what a failure you are in life and how unfair it is that he is the one who has to die and how trapped by the situation you feel AND AT THE SAME TIME admitting and accepting that it is all in my head and if I just got on with shit I would be fine... Well, it kinda didn't work so well and had a non-therapeutic effect... Not to mention my therapist was a sex bomb of a 28 yr old former DI soccer player. Yeah, cataloging my issues with her was GREAT FUN! I remember sitting in my car before going in to see her and shaking uncontrollably and crying and punching myself in the leg telling myself to not be such a pussy and get in there and do what has to be done!

Then my father died and that part was as good as something like that can be... And things stayed the same with my anxiety until I keyed into the Morita isolation thing and shut it all down for 2 weeks straight. The first week I just slept and laid around in a dark and quiet house 24/7. I know right? The start of the second week I began to stretch and clean up... By the end of the second week I began to talk to people again. It was still a long road back from there and most of that was learning how to withdraw from what set me off and not getting on with things...

And you know what, CBT would be fine now, and things are good again but I am not a 20 gallon tank of water that is just a tiny tiny tiny bit of additional heat away from boiling over at all times either... What works is limiting my exposure to external stimulus.

TL;DR CBT is great if your problems aren't really problems.

FRAT

Ummm... My first sentence was TL;DR CBT/CL is great if your problems aren't really problems. jackass.

Well, anyway.


With my daughter, her therapist simple would identify one behavior at a time and have her work on an alternative.

So, this is what was going on. She'd wake up and think she had to pee. she'd try and wait it out by counting her fingers and toes til she'd get to 100. And then she'd go into the bathroom and open and close the door a number of times before tapping on the door. When she did pee, (which was never much because she was up doing this every two hours) she would then go out into the hallway and do this crazy arm waving ritual before getting back into bed and tapping the bed frame. I was having insomnia at the time and caught her because the toilet kept flushing. The number of rituals she confessed to having to her therapist was staggering.

During waking hours, she would deal with the urges to do rituals by pinching herself.

I honestly don't know what the therapist did, but it was a freaking miracle. She was in therapy once a week for 3 months. And like I said, she just took it one behavior at a time.

And now, she's mostly normal. Still a control freak like her mom, but has much better coping skills.

As for the bullies next door, their tactic was always the agitate and isolate. Ie, get her mad so she'd go inside and they'd get to continue playing with everyone else, or invite everyone else to their house and tell my daughter she couldn't come. Their parents witnessed this regularly, but said, "we think the kids need to figure out how to work this out on their own". Until the one day when they tried pulling that shit on my six year old, in my yard, and I walked outside with a baseball bat and told them to get the fuck out of my yard. And when they didn't immediately run home, I swung the bat at the tree next to our swingset (which they were sitting on and told my six year old he couldn't use) and hit it hard enough to knock some leaves off. I got to have an hour long talk with their mom after that where I basically outlined all of her moral failings as a parent, promised to try and work things out, and haven't spoken to either parent since. As expected, their kids are doing really badly in school and will probably spend high school getting pregnant in the back of their boyfriend's car.

You should've been charged with assault.

I did several years of classic CBT, talk therapy stuff. The last guy I saw basically gave me the same message you get form the Reynolds book...

"So that's how you feel...what do you plan to do about it?"

All else being equal or just setting it all aside, Doing beats the fuck out of talking. Constructive Living is all about doing, what you DO will change how you feel, not the other way around.

Seriously...one of the best things I can think of for most people who need talk therapy is this: Get your shit together...seriously...your stuff. deal with that.



Now go Do something.....Anything...Ayahuasca/20 reps squats/build a boat/walk to Scotland.