IGX

The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:Um, SPELLS!, what you're failing to recognize is we have many decades worth of ammo that is and will be serviceable enough for the bad guys. "Supply elimination" only hurts good guys in this scenario, period.

No I'm not. Once the supply is cut off, a dwindling black market exists with extremely high prices and you have to know somebody. No, it will not stop all crime immediately. Criminals shoot people all over the world. It's just a lot rarer in places with restrictions.

There's a weird Catch-22 in these arguments:

"He bought the gun legally, so gun restrictions don't work on bad guys and hurt good guys."
"He broke the law to get the gun, proving that gun restrictions only hurt good guys and don't stop bad guys."

Bear in mind with this scenario good guys can still buy guns and ammo, though not as easily. I know a shooting competitor in France. It's just more cumbersome than it is here today.

The people in these situations regularly off themselves as they expect to die. The expectation of getting shot is part of the plan, not a deterrent.

Grandpa's Spells wrote:

The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:Um, SPELLS!, what you're failing to recognize is we have many decades worth of ammo that is and will be serviceable enough for the bad guys. "Supply elimination" only hurts good guys in this scenario, period.

No I'm not. Once the supply is cut off, a dwindling black market exists with extremely high prices and you have to know somebody.

At least you noted it will take time. I'm going to take an educated guess here that the 'dwindling black market' will dwindle at a snail's pace though. If I'm a Mexican or Albanian or Chinese thug, I'm gonna use my hook-ups back in the motherland to make buckets of $$$$$$$$$$$ to supply the bad guys (and even good guys) with somewhat affordable guns n' ammo in your world.

The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:

Grandpa's Spells wrote:

The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:Um, SPELLS!, what you're failing to recognize is we have many decades worth of ammo that is and will be serviceable enough for the bad guys. "Supply elimination" only hurts good guys in this scenario, period.

No I'm not. Once the supply is cut off, a dwindling black market exists with extremely high prices and you have to know somebody.

At least you noted it will take time. I'm going to take an educated guess here that the 'dwindling black market' will dwindle at a snail's pace though. If I'm a Mexican or Albanian or Chinese thug, I'm gonna use my hook-ups back in the motherland to make buckets of $$$$$$$$$$$ to supply the bad guys (and even good guys) with somewhat affordable guns n' ammo in your world.

With the right demagoguery we can have a war on guns that effects our liberties as positively as the war on drugs.

The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:If you somehow take the guns away from the sicko 300 you mentioned earlier, they will find another way is all I'm saying.

I don't think there is any evidence to support that they will find another way. At all.

They might try to find another way, but every other way is a lot harder than just knocking them down with a semi-auto, and nowhere near as cool and tactical. With weapons, you can assemble a massive arsenal and you are a 2nd amendment hero up until the moment you cross the school boundary. With a bomb, you are illegal the moment you start contriving them.

Good, reliable bombs are hard to make too. They blow up early. They don't work. You leave a trail of breadcrumbs to what you are doing. They are hard to emplace in a good spot. You are stuck with the victim's timetable. It takes planning and patience. Etc.

There was a reason we hunted down the bomb makers in Iraq and Afghanistan.

We can't prevent all of these actions, but the more friction you throw in the process of conceiving and executing mass murders, the fewer that will occur. Forcing them to try to make bombs and use them would save a lot of lives.

I disagree and assert that it's a helluva lot easier in a pinch to go to Home Depot go get some chain and locks, throw in some of that canned fuel for the lawnmower, maybe some $3 paint thinner, too, and then run across the street to the gas station to fill up a couple of small gas cans that can fit in a gym bag.

Say, has anyone mentioned Happyland, The Bronx, New York, in this thread?

DrDonkeyLove wrote:

The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:

Grandpa's Spells wrote:

The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:Um, SPELLS!, what you're failing to recognize is we have many decades worth of ammo that is and will be serviceable enough for the bad guys. "Supply elimination" only hurts good guys in this scenario, period.

No I'm not. Once the supply is cut off, a dwindling black market exists with extremely high prices and you have to know somebody.

At least you noted it will take time. I'm going to take an educated guess here that the 'dwindling black market' will dwindle at a snail's pace though. If I'm a Mexican or Albanian or Chinese thug, I'm gonna use my hook-ups back in the motherland to make buckets of $$$$$$$$$$$ to supply the bad guys (and even good guys) with somewhat affordable guns n' ammo in your world.

With the right demagoguery we can have a war on guns that effects our liberties as positively as the war on drugs.

LOL...I was on my way to Home Depot earlier and thought about my comment to Spells as to how gangsters would make a ton of geeters selling relatively cheap ammo on the black market and how they'd not only get the bad guys as customers, but the good guys as well. Much like you're not about to turn your back on anyone you know and care about who buys a dime bag of weed, you're not going to turn your back on them if they buy some Czech made 9mm if the Spells' of the world make ammo too hard for regular folks to get.

The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:I disagree and assert that it's a helluva lot easier in a pinch to go to Home Depot go get some chain and locks, throw in some of that canned fuel for the lawnmower, maybe some $3 paint thinner, too, and then run across the street to the gas station to fill up a couple of small gas cans that can fit in a gym bag.

Look at Columbine, which was supposed to be primarily a bombing. They had dozens of bombs of varying degrees of complexity. Most failed to detonate and the pipe bombs failed to kill anyone.

Grandpa's Spells wrote:

The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:I disagree and assert that it's a helluva lot easier in a pinch to go to Home Depot go get some chain and locks, throw in some of that canned fuel for the lawnmower, maybe some $3 paint thinner, too, and then run across the street to the gas station to fill up a couple of small gas cans that can fit in a gym bag.

Look at Columbine, which was supposed to be primarily a bombing. They had dozens of bombs of varying degrees of complexity. Most failed to detonate and the pipe bombs failed to kill anyone.

Agree with you and Nafod, 100%....bombs won't get it done. But look what one, deranged/mentally ill and drunk man can do with a single can of gas, and on a whim:





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Land_fire

Now I know someone's gonna get all smug and say the place was a deathtrap and not up to code anyway, yada, yada....and that's true, too. But you'd be quite sickened as you walk through your office, church, or school and see how easy it is to block a door or three and how fast shit can catch fire. Ever been in a fire? I have.

The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:I disagree and assert that it's a helluva lot easier in a pinch to go to Home Depot go get some chain and locks, throw in some of that canned fuel for the lawnmower, maybe some $3 paint thinner, too, and then run across the street to the gas station to fill up a couple of small gas cans that can fit in a gym bag.

So why isn't it happening? It can't be that all of the murderous nut cases in our country own weapons, is it? Surely there are young kids out there wishing doom on their schools, but no ready access to semi-automatic weapons. In fact, there should be more of them. Too easy!

Say, has anyone mentioned Happyland, The Bronx, New York, in this thread?

Oh, you mean the club that didn't have fire exits, alarms, or sprinkler systems? Fire extinguishers? How many schools fall into that category? Edit: just saw your post. That place had barred windows too.

There should over 300 Happyland equivalents/year, figuring nutcases without guns outnumber nutcases with guns. They should be everywhere. They aren't.

nafod wrote:

The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:I disagree and assert that it's a helluva lot easier in a pinch to go to Home Depot go get some chain and locks, throw in some of that canned fuel for the lawnmower, maybe some $3 paint thinner, too, and then run across the street to the gas station to fill up a couple of small gas cans that can fit in a gym bag.[\quote]
So why isn't it happening? It can't be that all of the murderous nut cases in our country own weapons, is it? Surely there are young kids out there wishing doom on their schools, but no ready access to semi-automatic weapons. In fact, there should be more of them.

Say, has anyone mentioned Happyland, The Bronx, New York, in this thread?

Oh, you mean the club that didn't have fire exits, alarms, or sprinkler systems? How many schools fall into that category? Edit: just saw your post. That place had barred windows too.

There should over 300 Happyland equivalents/year, figuring nutcases without guns outnumber nutcases with guns.

All I'm saying is you show me how guns are more effective for mass murderers than a bic lighter and a can of gas. And then show me how those 300 events, as tragic as I'm sure everyone of them was, is somehow a major issue in the grand scheme of gun crime and gun ownership. It really is barely a pimple of the ass of the problem. I harp on Happyland because it was my hometown, and it's so easy to see how that can be replicated even in much safer buildings such as modern day schools. In a sense I am somewhat (knowingly) supporting your argument, but don't tell me that if those 300 nuts did not have access to guns, they would not have figured out another way.....that makes zero sense.

Not to get all smushy on you guys, but I really do appreciate the differing opinions and the ability to discuss them out.

:nobody

Grandpa's Spells wrote:

The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:Um, SPELLS!, what you're failing to recognize is we have many decades worth of ammo that is and will be serviceable enough for the bad guys. "Supply elimination" only hurts good guys in this scenario, period.

No I'm not. Once the supply is cut off, a dwindling black market exists with extremely high prices and you have to know somebody.

We couldn't make that work for alcohol and haven't made it work for drugs. What makes you think we can make it work with guns?

Turdacious wrote:

Grandpa's Spells wrote:

The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:Um, SPELLS!, what you're failing to recognize is we have many decades worth of ammo that is and will be serviceable enough for the bad guys. "Supply elimination" only hurts good guys in this scenario, period.

No I'm not. Once the supply is cut off, a dwindling black market exists with extremely high prices and you have to know somebody.

We couldn't make that work for alcohol and haven't made it work for drugs. What makes you think we can make it work with guns?

Egggzactly.

Turdacious wrote:

Grandpa's Spells wrote:

The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:Um, SPELLS!, what you're failing to recognize is we have many decades worth of ammo that is and will be serviceable enough for the bad guys. "Supply elimination" only hurts good guys in this scenario, period.

No I'm not. Once the supply is cut off, a dwindling black market exists with extremely high prices and you have to know somebody.

We couldn't make that work for alcohol and haven't made it work for drugs. What makes you think we can make it work with guns?

Actually, googling will show you that Prohibition resulted in a drastic reduction in alcohol consumption, alcohol-related illness, and alcohol-related crimes. We made a decision to repeal because that is what the collective wanted, not because it didn't work.

nafod wrote:

Turdacious wrote:

Grandpa's Spells wrote:

The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:Um, SPELLS!, what you're failing to recognize is we have many decades worth of ammo that is and will be serviceable enough for the bad guys. "Supply elimination" only hurts good guys in this scenario, period.

No I'm not. Once the supply is cut off, a dwindling black market exists with extremely high prices and you have to know somebody.

We couldn't make that work for alcohol and haven't made it work for drugs. What makes you think we can make it work with guns?

Actually, googling will show you that Prohibition resulted in a drastic reduction in alcohol consumption, alcohol-related illness, and alcohol-related crimes. We made a decision to repeal because that is what the collective wanted, not because it didn't work.

Um, if the collective did not want it, then it did not work, plain and simple.

Turdacious wrote:

Grandpa's Spells wrote:

The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:Um, SPELLS!, what you're failing to recognize is we have many decades worth of ammo that is and will be serviceable enough for the bad guys. "Supply elimination" only hurts good guys in this scenario, period.

No I'm not. Once the supply is cut off, a dwindling black market exists with extremely high prices and you have to know somebody.

We couldn't make that work for alcohol and haven't made it work for drugs. What makes you think we can make it work with guns?

Every other developed nation has figured it out. It may partly be due to the fact that you can't grow bullets from scratch in your backyard or ferment them in your bathtub. There are several technology hurdles to make a modern bullet.

Also, prohibition, while not smart, made a big impact on a major problem, cutting alcohol-related deaths/hospitalizations/imprisonments by something over half, IIRC. Shit was a legitimate problem, and prohibition curbed it considerably.

LOL
http://www.theonion.com/article/nra-cal ... ted--34336

Grandpa's Spells wrote: Every other developed nation has figured it out.

I've got arguments with Jack the Giraffe and Pig Beach on FB going on concurrently, so do forgive me if I have posed this here, on this thread:

How do we explain The Swiss and their mindset and policy on guns in the home vs. say, the Swedes?

How do we explain the top 25 murderous nations are pretty much of a singular race?
(not all are third world and lo and behold, USA is not on the list, BTW)

Last but certainly not least, mass murders in America (with guns) is fairly new, yet gun ownership in America is not....why is that?

Grandpa's Spells wrote:LOL
http://www.theonion.com/article/nra-cal ... ted--34336

Love The Onion!

The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:How do we explain The Swiss and their mindset and policy on guns in the home vs. say, the Swedes?

We don't.

How do we explain the top 25 murderous nations are pretty much of a singular race?
(not all are third world and lo and behold, USA is not on the list, BTW)

They're 3rd world countries or failed states, I would guess?

Last but certainly not least, mass murders in America (with guns) is fairly new, yet gun ownership in America is not....why is that?

I don't know, perhaps laws have gotten increasingly permissive? It sounds like you have a some kind of theory that you're not sharing, but I'm not sure.

The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:

Grandpa's Spells wrote: Every other developed nation has figured it out.

I've got arguments with Jack the Giraffe and Pig Beach on FB going on concurrently, so do forgive me if I have posed this here, on this thread:

How do we explain The Swiss and their mindset and policy on guns in the home vs. say, the Swedes?

Don't know bout the Swedes. I like the Swiss model. Most everyone serves in the militia, everyone gets trained, all guns are registered.

Last but certainly not least, mass murders in America (with guns) is fairly new, yet gun ownership in America is not....why is that?

Ready access to semi-automatic weapons is my thinking. That's a fairly new thing in our history.

The AR15 was invented in 1959.

9mm invented in 1902.

CNN, Paxil, Prozac, Zoloft, all came a little later and all can be attributed to the perps of mass murders.

The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:How do we explain The Swiss and their mindset and policy on guns in the home vs. say, the Swedes?

Swiss gun laws are incredibly strict by American standards. For handgun ammo alone you've got to show your permit for the weapon you're buying ammo for, a criminal background report, no self-defense ammo, etc., ammo purchases are reported to the government with the above info. Require one of those, much less all of them (not to mention that handgun permit to start with) and 'Murricans are going to lose their shit.

The idea that Switzerland is a playground of lax gun laws and American-like attitudes toward guns is simply wrong.

The closest you're getting to American gun culture in Europe is the Czech Republic.

How do we explain the top 25 murderous nations are pretty much of a singular race?
(not all are third world and lo and behold, USA is not on the list, BTW)

Um... I assume you're trying to get Kaz to slip you a handie here but "the niggrahs are at fault" doesn't hold up - the most homicidal countries are undeveloped or underdeveloped South American, sub-Saharan African and Caribbean nations. You might have noticed a difference in skintone between the average Honduran and the average Jamaican.

So, yeah, poverty and lack of opportunity is the most obvious discriminator on homicide rates - which does a lot to explain low overall rates in Western Europe and Japan/Aus/NZ vs the US - even without guns we'd still be more violent and homicidal than they are, we just have guns on top. Which is also why confiscation isn't going to turn the US into Belgium, much less non-confiscatory gun control measures that will do fuck all.

Last but certainly not least, mass murders in America (with guns) is fairly new, yet gun ownership in America is not....why is that?

Are "mass murders" new? What do you base this on? Charles Whitman is a recent event?
What's new is the Internet and a truly national news media environment that make us all immediately aware of police brutality, kiddie fiddling and mass murder. Cops have always been pigs, people have always been sticking their dicks in kids and people kill each other all the time.

The Venerable Bogatir X wrote: Paxil, Prozac, Zoloft, all came a little later and all can be attributed to the perps of mass murders.

This is the laziest, stupidest GMOS ARE GONNA KILL US, FLUORIDE ROBS ME OF MY MANHOOD, I ONLY EAT PALEO GLUTEN FREE BECAUSE WHEAT IS POISON anti-science anti-rational bullshit.