Anybody hear about the school shooting in Oregon yesterday?

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The Venerable Bogatir X
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Re: Anybody hear about the school shooting in Oregon yesterday?

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X »

milosz wrote:
The Venerable Bogatir X wrote: Paxil, Prozac, Zoloft, all came a little later and all can be attributed to the perps of mass murders.
This is the laziest, stupidest GMOS ARE GONNA KILL US, FLUORIDE ROBS ME OF MY MANHOOD, I ONLY EAT PALEO GLUTEN FREE BECAUSE WHEAT IS POISON anti-science anti-rational bullshit.
O
M
G

It's not like lefties who are millennials actually need any help proving how divisive, assumptive, and arrogant they really are but that was pretty good. Your ability to put someone in a nice, neat box would do any hardcore lefty of any generation, proud.


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Re: Anybody hear about the school shooting in Oregon yesterday?

Post by Blaidd Drwg »

The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:
milosz wrote:
The Venerable Bogatir X wrote: Paxil, Prozac, Zoloft, all came a little later and all can be attributed to the perps of mass murders.
This is the laziest, stupidest GMOS ARE GONNA KILL US, FLUORIDE ROBS ME OF MY MANHOOD, I ONLY EAT PALEO GLUTEN FREE BECAUSE WHEAT IS POISON anti-science anti-rational bullshit.
O
M
G

It's not like lefties who are millennials actually need any help proving how divisive, assumptive, and arrogant they really are but that was pretty good. Your ability to put someone in a nice, neat box would do any hardcore lefty of any generation, proud.
It sounds lazy, but is it? Is it? How do you arrive at that conclusion? Personal exp? review of the lit? SWIM stories?

There's a tremendous amount of science (DONE BY THE PRODUCERS OF SSSRIs) that indicates several categories of psych meds very much a game changer when it comes to suicidal ideation etc.

I'd be prone to dismissing this as hysteria if I had not sampled a bit out of re-uptake inhibitor pool. That shit is hands down and by FAR the most dangerous class of chemicals I've ingested, insulfated, or injected.
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Re: Anybody hear about the school shooting in Oregon yesterday?

Post by milosz »

Suicidal ideation and similar issues - which can happen when you fuck with brain chemistry whether you do that with coke or booze or Mommy's Little Helper - does not equal "mass murdering maniac." There are roughly 30 million Americans on anti-depressants - yet only a few dozen mass shooters (not all of whom are on ADs), it's going to take a lot of work to argue that they're at fault for those few dozen without causing the same 'symptoms' in the other 29,999,926.

Beyond that, as I said to start with, this is only a reasonable course of explanation if drugs that fuck with your head are banned in the rest of the developed world that doesn't have routine mass killings, which they are not.


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Re: Anybody hear about the school shooting in Oregon yesterday?

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The Venerable Bogatir X wrote: It's not like lefties who are millennials actually need any help proving how divisive, assumptive, and arrogant they really are but that was pretty good. Your ability to put someone in a nice, neat box would do any hardcore lefty of any generation, proud.
I didn't put you in a neat box, I put your anti-reason argument in a box. A stupid, lazy box that used to hold anti-vaxxer pamphlets with one side caved in that's scotch taped together because Darf ran out of duct tape. Tough.

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Re: Anybody hear about the school shooting in Oregon yesterday?

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Across the board, guns are the most effective method of violence, whether the violence be murder, suicide, or self-defense.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

W.B. Yeats


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Re: Anybody hear about the school shooting in Oregon yesterday?

Post by Blaidd Drwg »

milosz wrote:Suicidal ideation and similar issues - which can happen when you fuck with brain chemistry whether you do that with coke or booze or Mommy's Little Helper - does not equal "mass murdering maniac." There are roughly 30 million Americans on anti-depressants - yet only a few dozen mass shooters (not all of whom are on ADs), it's going to take a lot of work to argue that they're at fault for those few dozen without causing the same 'symptoms' in the other 29,999,926.

Beyond that, as I said to start with, this is only a reasonable course of explanation if drugs that fuck with your head are banned in the rest of the developed world that doesn't have routine mass killings, which they are not.

I think you're the one oversimplifying, son. You're breezily dismissive of something that has a lot of scientific merit. GMO hating does not.

This is no different from the use of LSD, in general, no harm no foul but if you've a history of bi-polar disorder or similar condition, it is to be vigourously avoided. It may very well be the case, that the types of people prone to these violent behaviors are just the sort of people who receive mental health treatment in the form of chemical intervention. The drug angle is absolutely worth exploring if you feel mass shootings are a public health crisis....which from a numbers standpoint they are very clearly not...NONETHELESS...if one insists on bearing down on the particulars if this type of incident, you'd be an utter fool to disregard psycho-pharma as a factor.

Now if you want to talk about guns as a public health issue....the numbers don't lie. We know exactly where to look for the answers there.
"He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that." JS Mill


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Re: Anybody hear about the school shooting in Oregon yesterday?

Post by Boris »

johno wrote:Across the board, guns are the most effective method of violence, whether the violence be murder, suicide, or self-defense.
Guns aren't violent. People are violent...

:-"

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Re: Anybody hear about the school shooting in Oregon yesterday?

Post by DARTH »

230,000,000+ people breathing America's air.

If you looked at America as one person, all the "mass shootings" would be about a pinprick to him.

If you took all deaths by bullet ( including mass shootings) where the victim was not a convicted felon or a criminal killed in commission of crime, it might make a small papercut.

You'd have to add in the criminals to even make it as bad as cutting himself shaving.

So the best thing is to grow some balls and perspective and get on with it because this is a media generated "problem". Any fucked up thing you can think of is going down right now, somewhere in the USA. They sit and wait for more than 4 people to go down in one incident and then focus their cameras. Obo is much the same. His blue gums were flapping before the bodies hit room temperature.

Civilians who call for gun control are acting out of sensitivities and sensibilities. So many more things kill far more of us than bullets do and a lot of people killed with bullets should die. Hey if they don’t like guns they can haul ass to many other 1st world nations and live there.

We don't need to change the one 1st world nation where a man has rights to self defense that actually work because of the feelings of the wilfully weak. Meanwhile over there in Progressive Land they are now banning knives because many criminals use them and still will just as parts of England do have a real problem with wannabe niggers using guns.

And the elephant in the room about American gun crime and Euro gun crime is...Niggers. We all have blacks but ours were breed longer to be farm equipment and not thinkers. The average black American IQ is 70-80, that's a fucking moron, near what we used to call a retard. Europe was not so gung ho in selectively breeding them when they had slavery. They also have one thing they did better than we did concerning blacks after freeing them, they were better to them but they also expected them to act like equals and act like people. You can understand a Black Brit a lot better than what we have in Da Hood because his society does not look kindly on mush moth ebonics, they can actually say "Ask" over there.

Being only 11-13% yet 51% of our convicted murderers. it be interesting if you took all the bullet death stats where blacks were involved out the mix and see what we had then.


Now if you really want to do something about this shit? Make it to where society smiles on men carrying sidearms and blades, in fact looks at it as part of a man's daily wear. Nice shoes, good slacks, button shirt, Glock 19 on the side and Bowie knife in crossdraw. Arm the fuck up, buck the fuck up. Constitutional carry. Adam and Steve's marriage has to be recognised in all 50 states? Good, so does Maine's new gun law. You carry how you see fit, concealed or open.Accept that sometimes men will go to their weapons in fights (But come down hard on that. Fuck, bring back duels so some assholes can meet and just kill each other.) but overall, you'd see crime dip.

Security is not supposed to be the job of the government alone. It's a partnership or at least different levels of responsibility but it all starts with the man (or woman) taking steps to protect themselves and what is dear to them.




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Re: Anybody hear about the school shooting in Oregon yesterday?

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X »

milosz wrote:Suicidal ideation and similar issues - which can happen when you fuck with brain chemistry whether you do that with coke or booze or Mommy's Little Helper - does not equal "mass murdering maniac." There are roughly 30 million Americans on anti-depressants - yet only a few dozen mass shooters (not all of whom are on ADs), it's going to take a lot of work to argue that they're at fault for those few dozen without causing the same 'symptoms' in the other 29,999,926.

Beyond that, as I said to start with, this is only a reasonable course of explanation if drugs that fuck with your head are banned in the rest of the developed world that doesn't have routine mass killings, which they are not.
What I was implying is that if you ask what's new, that's what's new. I heartily concur with you that the overwhelming majority of people who are on say, SSRI's are not going to go homicidal sideways. I've been on SSRi's for 2 years now....not for depression, but anxiety-centric issues and I assure you I have no visions of harming anyone other than the fantasy all in tact males dream about as they save the day, ect.


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Re: Anybody hear about the school shooting in Oregon yesterday?

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X »

milosz wrote:
The Venerable Bogatir X wrote: It's not like lefties who are millennials actually need any help proving how divisive, assumptive, and arrogant they really are but that was pretty good. Your ability to put someone in a nice, neat box would do any hardcore lefty of any generation, proud.
I didn't put you in a neat box, I put your anti-reason argument in a box. A stupid, lazy box that used to hold anti-vaxxer pamphlets with one side caved in that's scotch taped together because Darf ran out of duct tape. Tough.

Snobbish, assumptive, dumbassity, right there.


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Re: Anybody hear about the school shooting in Oregon yesterday?

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X »

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
milosz wrote:Suicidal ideation and similar issues - which can happen when you fuck with brain chemistry whether you do that with coke or booze or Mommy's Little Helper - does not equal "mass murdering maniac." There are roughly 30 million Americans on anti-depressants - yet only a few dozen mass shooters (not all of whom are on ADs), it's going to take a lot of work to argue that they're at fault for those few dozen without causing the same 'symptoms' in the other 29,999,926.

Beyond that, as I said to start with, this is only a reasonable course of explanation if drugs that fuck with your head are banned in the rest of the developed world that doesn't have routine mass killings, which they are not.

I think you're the one oversimplifying, son. You're breezily dismissive of something that has a lot of scientific merit. GMO hating does not.

This is no different from the use of LSD, in general, no harm no foul but if you've a history of bi-polar disorder or similar condition, it is to be vigourously avoided. It may very well be the case, that the types of people prone to these violent behaviors are just the sort of people who receive mental health treatment in the form of chemical intervention. The drug angle is absolutely worth exploring if you feel mass shootings are a public health crisis....which from a numbers standpoint they are very clearly not...NONETHELESS...if one insists on bearing down on the particulars if this type of incident, you'd be an utter fool to disregard psycho-pharma as a factor.

Now if you want to talk about guns as a public health issue....the numbers don't lie. We know exactly where to look for the answers there.
BD, I think you were targeting Miloz, not me with your remarks, but at the end of the day we both know SSRI's are not without their problems. I just happen to believe that people are harping on something that may happen 300x per year (which is 300x too many, we all agree) but other than media sizzle and macabre sensationalism, mass shootings are a non-issue compared to legit gun owner's lack of crime and bad guy's commissions of crime with guns illegally obtained.


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Re: Anybody hear about the school shooting in Oregon yesterday?

Post by Blaidd Drwg »

My mistake. I was focused on Miloz.
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Re: Anybody hear about the school shooting in Oregon yesterday?

Post by milosz »

You're breezily dismissive of something that has a lot of scientific merit.
That's the thing - it doesn't have scientific (or even statistical) merit. It's correlation without causation - some shooters have been on drugs therefore the drugs must be suspicious as agents.

Problems:
Doesn't explain shooters not on drugs.
Shooters represent a miniscule proportion of those using drugs, 99.9999% of whom don't kill anyone. If SSRIs/ADs were a homicidal trigger we'd see it in a larger percentage of the drug-using population.
SSRI use is prevalent throughout the developed world - but they don't have the continual mass killing problem we do.
On the correlation angle - it's all but guaranteed that a larger percentage of shooters have played violent video games or watched violent movies than have been prescribed but as a culture we've moved beyond the idea that playing Grand Theft Auto turns you into a marauding carjacker.
Almost all shooters are white men - but white women are almost twice as likely to be on a SSRI/AD. Where are those shooters at?

I mean if we want to talk about the bullshit of overprescribing these drugs, I'm all about it. The great scam of Big Pharma isn't that the mental health drugs are dangerous, it's that the drugs (as a rule) aren't particularly effective (particularly set against their negative side effects) and most depressed/mentally ill people (who aren't actively delusional or working on offing themselves) would be better off meditating, exercising and talking about their issues with a trusted confidant (whether that's a friend or therapist).


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Re: Anybody hear about the school shooting in Oregon yesterday?

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X »

milosz wrote: Doesn't explain shooters not on drugs.

\
Whoa, there ghostrider, which mass shooting perp in the past 20 years has NOT been on SSRIs and the like?

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Re: Anybody hear about the school shooting in Oregon yesterday?

Post by johno »

milosz wrote: Almost all shooters are white men -
Both the gay newscaster & this Oregon kid were both mixed race, black & white.

milosz wrote:... white women are almost twice as likely to be on a SSRI/AD. Where are those shooters at?
Likely, in Ranger School.
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

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Re: Anybody hear about the school shooting in Oregon yesterday?

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X »

johno wrote:Across the board, guns are the most effective method of violence, whether the violence be murder, suicide, or self-defense.
Perhaps in the latter two examples but reality shows that in terms of mass murder, there are *better* ways. And you've been a gunslinger and you are a firefighter, so you know what I speak is troof.


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Re: Anybody hear about the school shooting in Oregon yesterday?

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The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:
milosz wrote: Doesn't explain shooters not on drugs.

\
Whoa, there ghostrider, which mass shooting perp in the past 20 years has NOT been on SSRIs and the like?
We actually don't know. That's the other problem - the 'common knowledge' that they were is to parrot Infowars and Natural News and other assorted worthless garbage. There's no real source to those claims.


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Re: Anybody hear about the school shooting in Oregon yesterday?

Post by The Venerable Bogatir X »

milosz wrote:
The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:
milosz wrote: Doesn't explain shooters not on drugs.

\
Whoa, there ghostrider, which mass shooting perp in the past 20 years has NOT been on SSRIs and the like?
We actually don't know. That's the other problem - the 'common knowledge' that they were is to parrot Infowars and Natural News and other assorted worthless garbage. There's no real source to those claims.

We actually do and that answer is 100%.


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Re: Anybody hear about the school shooting in Oregon yesterday?

Post by TerryB »

Homicidal ideation is a side effect of some drugs
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Re: Anybody hear about the school shooting in Oregon yesterday?

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TerryB wrote:Homicidal ideation is a side effect of some drugs
And no one's saying everyone who takes them goes homicidal, but in a very small number of cases, notably young males, it has been observed. What are the prescription rates in other countries compared to the US?
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Re: Anybody hear about the school shooting in Oregon yesterday?

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We need to encourage more people, not fewer, to receive mental health counseling. Stripping Second Amendment rights from a person for seeing a counselor or being prescribed a SSRI?

If you want to look for common threads, you would be better off banning men under the age of 40 from owning firearms.
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Re: Anybody hear about the school shooting in Oregon yesterday?

Post by milosz »

The Venerable Bogatir X wrote: We actually do and that answer is 100%.
Your source is?


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Re: Anybody hear about the school shooting in Oregon yesterday?

Post by Protobuilder »

milosz wrote:
The Venerable Bogatir X wrote: We actually do and that answer is 100%.
Your source is?
Alex Jones.
WildGorillaMan wrote:Enthusiasm combined with no skill whatsoever can sometimes carry the day.


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Re: Anybody hear about the school shooting in Oregon yesterday?

Post by Blaidd Drwg »

Milo...

No one hear is suggesting that psychotropic drugs cause mass shootings. But there is solid science and evidence to suggest there's a link.

Let me repeat so you don't have anywhere to run on this sad tirade....

Ssri's don't CAUSE people to pick up a gun and start killing school kids. That would be as stupid as osaying that access to a gun CAUSES a person to start killin.

No one in their right mind would dispute both pychotropics and ready access to the tool are factors in the way these tragedies play out. BUT I am saying when it comes to MOTIVATION, psychotropics are worth looking at from a causal perspective...at the very least anyone who has used them can describe what a game changer they are in mental faculties and decision-making.

Now maybe you're making a more complicated philisophical argument that the tool influences the mental health of its user. If so, cool. I'm interested in the science on that.
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Re: Anybody hear about the school shooting in Oregon yesterday?

Post by The Ginger Beard Man »

nafod wrote:
Turdacious wrote:
Grandpa's Spells wrote:
The Venerable Bogatir X wrote:Um, SPELLS!, what you're failing to recognize is we have many decades worth of ammo that is and will be serviceable enough for the bad guys. "Supply elimination" only hurts good guys in this scenario, period.
No I'm not. Once the supply is cut off, a dwindling black market exists with extremely high prices and you have to know somebody.
We couldn't make that work for alcohol and haven't made it work for drugs. What makes you think we can make it work with guns?
Actually, googling will show you that Prohibition resulted in a drastic reduction in alcohol consumption, alcohol-related illness, and alcohol-related crimes. We made a decision to repeal because that is what the collective wanted, not because it didn't work.
And legalization of pot in Colorado and Washington have lead to more people smoking, and eating, marijuana. What kind of people, you ask?
Law abiding people.
Prohibition was repealed because it had some rather nasty side effects. The War on Drugs will eventually end because it has some nasty sides, too.
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