Sniper shoots 10 Dallas Cops, kills 3

TomFurman · Post by **TomFurman** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 1:16 am

For whatever reason.. from some sources.. Dallas shooter after bomb blast.

Yes I Have Balls · Post by **Yes I Have Balls** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:10 pm

"We are trying as best as we can as a law enforcement community to make it work so the citizens can express their Second Amendment rights. But it's increasingly challenging when people have AR-15s slung over and shootings occur in a crowd and they begin running, and we don't know -- or we don't know if they're the shooter or not, or they begin, it's been the presumption that a good guy with a gun is the best way to resolve some of these things. Well, we don't know who the good guy is versus who the bad guy is..."

*shrug*

DrDonkeyLove · Post by **DrDonkeyLove** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:50 pm

Yes I Have Balls wrote:"We are trying as best as we can as a law enforcement community to make it work so the citizens can express their Second Amendment rights. But it's increasingly challenging when people have AR-15s slung over and shootings occur in a crowd and they begin running, and we don't know -- or we don't know if they're the shooter or not, or they begin, it's been the presumption that a good guy with a gun is the best way to resolve some of these things. Well, we don't know who the good guy is versus who the bad guy is..."

*shrug*

I'm wondering how much gun laws have liberalized in red states since the left has made "sensible gun safety laws" and restrictions a priority and work endlessly to limit gun rights? Are loosened red state gun laws emotionally extreme responses to emotionally extreme rhetoric and actions from the other side? I think so.

Also, who is the best gun salesman in the history of America and the top fund raiser for the NRA?? Is it deliberate? Does he want legitimate compromise or a call to arms.

*shrugs - white women thread - hmmm*

powerlifter54 · Post by **powerlifter54** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:09 pm

Shafpocalypse Now wrote:Modern PhDs in non hard sciences are sloppy as fuck.

Blaidd Drwg · Post by **Blaidd Drwg** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:50 pm

Yes I Have Balls wrote:"We are trying as best as we can as a law enforcement community to make it work so the citizens can express their Second Amendment rights. But it's increasingly challenging when people have AR-15s slung over and shootings occur in a crowd and they begin running, and we don't know -- or we don't know if they're the shooter or not, or they begin, it's been the presumption that a good guy with a gun is the best way to resolve some of these things. Well, we don't know who the good guy is versus who the bad guy is..."

*shrug*

If only they used a similar level of caution when dealing with civilians not carrying Ar-15's

tough old man · Post by **tough old man** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:52 pm

How did this go from a psycho black panther BLM inspired shooter killing cops to a gun control discussion?

Blow that fucker up. Its what he deserves. Toss a couple of frags in there if you don't like robot Jezuz. Fucking terrorist organization, take em out and quit playing games.

You think the Lannisters would put up with that shit?

terra · Post by **terra** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 9:10 pm

I'll just leave this here...

https://www.commentarymagazine.com/amer ... ings-myth/

"... A new study conducted by Harvard University’s Rolando G. Fryer Jr. that shows there is no evidence that blacks are more likely than whites to be shot by cops.

Fryer, an African-American economics professor, characterized the results as “the most surprising result of my career.”...."

Blaidd Drwg · Post by **Blaidd Drwg** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 9:50 pm

What was interesting is that they receive poorer treatment overall but don't get shot as often as you'd think. So the perception that they get the shitty stick most of the times is true...but they don't get shot often as they'd expect.

dead man walking · Post by **dead man walking** » Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:24 pm

the nytimes had an article about the study, and the author of the study was quoted:

For Mr. Fryer, who has spent much of his career studying ways society can close the racial achievement gap, the failure to punish excessive everyday force is an important contributor to young black disillusionment.

“Who the hell wants to have a police officer put their hand on them or yell and scream at them? It’s an awful experience,” he said. “I’ve had it multiple, multiple times. Every black man I know has had this experience. Every one of them. It is hard to believe that the world is your oyster if the police can rough you up without punishment. And when I talked to minority youth, almost every single one of them mentions lower level uses of force as the reason why they believe the world is corrupt."

the times has some good graphics

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/upsho ... -news&_r=0

Turdacious · Post by **Turdacious** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:57 am

There's a flip side. Most of the black guys I know who've lived in moderately shitty neighborhoods have been robbed at least once (and not by the police); most white guys I know haven't.

dead man walking · Post by **dead man walking** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:30 pm

changing the subject doesn't alter the fact of widely documented discrimination by cops.

this from today

African-Americans in San Francisco are stopped and searched by police officers in disproportionate numbers and are subject to a host of other actions that appear to be discriminatory, according to a report issued on Monday that found the Police Department was in need of significant overhaul. The report also said that the department’s disciplinary system was riddled with shortcomings.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/us/sa ... d=30103353

Grandpa's Spells · Post by **Grandpa's Spells** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:10 pm

Turdacious wrote:There's a flip side. Most of the black guys I know who've lived in moderately shitty neighborhoods have been robbed at least once (and not by the police); most white guys I know haven't.

Peggy Noonan over here.

Turdacious · Post by **Turdacious** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:24 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Turdacious wrote:There's a flip side. Most of the black guys I know who've lived in moderately shitty neighborhoods have been robbed at least once (and not by the police); most white guys I know haven't.
Peggy Noonan over here.

I wish I wrote that well.

dead man walking · Post by **dead man walking** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 2:29 pm

Turdacious wrote:
Grandpa's Spells wrote:
Turdacious wrote:There's a flip side. Most of the black guys I know who've lived in moderately shitty neighborhoods have been robbed at least once (and not by the police); most white guys I know haven't.
Peggy Noonan over here.
I wish I wrote that well.

good writing is good thinking, so you're handicapped.

Sua Sponte · Post by **Sua Sponte** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:04 pm

Determining that the stops and interactions are racist because they're disproportionate to percent representation in the population is flawed. So flawed, it's just wrong. If you don't believe this, ask yourself why this isn't really a sexist issue. Men are stopped, arrested, and have force used against them at rates so disproportionate to their representation in the population that one must reach, if using the same reasoning, the ineluctable conclusion the real issue is gender discrimination.

Grandpa's Spells · Post by **Grandpa's Spells** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:37 pm

Sua Sponte wrote:Determining that the stops and interactions are racist because they're disproportionate to percent representation in the population is flawed. So flawed, it's just wrong. If you don't believe this, ask yourself why this isn't really a sexist issue. Men are stopped, arrested, and have force used against them at rates so disproportionate to their representation in the population that one must reach, if using the same reasoning, the ineluctable conclusion the real issue is gender discrimination.

The problem isn't that it's disproportionate to representation in the population. It's disproportionate, by an order of magnitude, to the rate of criminality of that group.

Sua Sponte · Post by **Sua Sponte** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:49 pm

That runs contrary to most of what I've read. The comparisons are largely to percent of population.

Give me a pointer to the article(s) showing order of magnitude. Honestly missed that.

Still, the same could be said of the treatment of men at the hands of the police.

I'm not suggesting that blacks aren't disproportionately singled out by the police. I'm saying this metric is fatally flawed because, if applied in a like manner elsewhere, the result is unpalatable to the prevailing view of those who point to this thinking as conclusive. Then again, politics has little truck with consistency. Hence the accurate claims of the social sciences, which are, again, more social than science, being sloppy of mind.

Grandpa's Spells · Post by **Grandpa's Spells** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:57 pm

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... drivers-2/

This is not quite what I stated but the quickest reference I can find. The actual study was cited a fair bit during the Ferguson thing.

Turdacious · Post by **Turdacious** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 4:42 pm

Grandpa's Spells wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... drivers-2/

This is not quite what I stated but the quickest reference I can find. The actual study was cited a fair bit during the Ferguson thing.

IMHO one of the primary jobs of LEOs is to protect legitimate commerce and property values. Commerce does better in areas with low property and violent crime, and there is a definite correlation between crime and property values. By this logic, keeping violent and property crime rates low is what cops are paid to do.

Searching black drivers may be more deterrence than anything, especially in Chicago with its long history of segregation and hard lines (one street is the line between a high crime area and a low crime one). With white drivers it may be different. If a white driver is in a bad neighborhood, they are likely either lost or doing something illegal. I've been pulled over in multiple cities while in bad neighborhoods (including Chicago); once the LEOs realized that I wasn't local, was sober, and was trying to get somewhere else, I was always given directions out and told that I was in a neighborhood I probably shouldn't be in (the experience was the same whether the cop was black or white). Black guys I know who were only guilty of DWB didn't have the same experience.

The same logic I think applies with Cabrini Green-- when it was finally torn down nobody wanted the residents in their neighborhood. The precursor to Ferguson's problems was it's inability to avoid having projects it's city limits like it's neighbors did. As long as the black poverty (and welfare dependency) rate stays high, and the disparity between crime rates in white and black neighborhoods stays so large, these problems are going to continue to occur as they always have.

dead man walking · Post by **dead man walking** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:07 pm

and in vermont, blacks stopped more, but whites more likely to have contraband.

SOUTH ROYALTON - Five years of traffic-stop data collected by Vermont State Police show a black motorist who is pulled over is nearly five times more likely to be searched than a white driver, while contraband is more likely to be found when a white driver is searched.

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/stor ... /84944206/

Blaidd Drwg · Post by **Blaidd Drwg** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:56 pm

Turdacious wrote: IMHO one of the primary jobs of LEOs is to protect legitimate commerce and property values. Commerce does better in areas with low property and violent crime, and there is a definite correlation between crime and property values. By this logic, keeping violent and property crime rates low is what cops are paid to do.

Sloppy wording or sloppy thinking? There is a correlation between perceived crime and perceived value.

There is nothing Police can do to preserve Value. Value is a arbitrary marker assigned by a range of factors in the market. Perhaps you meant "Property Rights".

POLICE OBJECTIVES AND PRIORITIES

Standard 1-2.1. Factors accounting for responsibilities given police

The wide range of government tasks currently assigned to police has been given, to a great degree, without any coherent planning by state or local governments of what the overriding objectives or priorities of the police should be. Instead, what police do is determined largely on an ad hoc basis by a number of factors which influence their involvement in responding to various government or community needs. These factors include:

(a) broad legislative mandates to the police;

(b) the authority of the police to use force lawfully;

(c) the investigative ability of the police;

(d) the twenty-four-hour availability of the police;

(e) community pressures on the police; and

(f) court decisions.

Standard 1-2.2. Major current responsibilities of police

In assessing appropriate objectives and priorities for police service, local communities should initially recognize that most police agencies are currently given responsibility, by design or default, to:

(a) identify criminal offenders and criminal activity and, where appropriate, to apprehend offenders and participate in subsequent court proceedings;

(b) reduce the opportunities for the commission of some crimes through preventive patrol and other measures;

(c) aid individuals who are in danger of physical harm;

(d) protect constitutional guarantees;

(e) facilitate the movement of people and vehicles;

(f) assist those who cannot care for themselves;

(g) resolve conflict;

(h) identify problems that are potentially serious law enforcement or governmental problems;

(i) create and maintain a feeling of security in the community;

(j)) promote and preserve civil order; and

(k) provide other services on an emergency basis.

Standard 1-2.3. Need for local objectives and priorities

While the scope and objectives of the exercise of the government's police power are properly determined in the first instance by state and local legislative bodies within the limits fixed by the Constitution and by court decisions, it should be recognized that there is considerable latitude remaining with local government to develop an overall direction for police services. Within these limits, each local jurisdiction should decide upon objectives and priorities. Decisions regarding police resources, police personnel needs, police organization, and relations with other government agencies should then be made in a way that will best achieve the objectives and priorities of a particular locality.

Standard 1-2.4. General criteria for objectives and priorities

In formulating an overall direction for police services and in selecting appropriate objectives and priorities for the police, communities should be guided by certain principles that should be inherent in a democratic society:

(a) The highest duties of government, and therefore the police, are to safeguard freedom, to preserve life and property, to protect the constitutional rights of citizens and maintain respect for the rule of law by proper enforcement thereof, and, thereby, to preserve democratic processes.(b) Implicit within this duty, the police have the responsibility for maintaining that degree of public order which is consistent with freedom and which is essential if our urban and diverse society is to be maintained.

(c) In implementing their varied responsibilities, police must provide maximum opportunity for achieving desired social change by freely available, lawful, and orderly means.

(d) In order to maximize the use of the special authority and ability of the police, it is appropriate for government, in developing objectives and priorities for police services, to give emphasis to those social and behavioral problems which may require the use of force or the use of special investigative abilities which the police possess. Given the awesome authority of the police to use force and the priority that must be given to preserving life, however, government should firmly establish the principle that the police should be restricted to using the amount of force reasonably necessary in responding to any situation.

http://www.americanbar.org/publications ... html#1-2.2

johno · Post by **johno** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:30 pm

I see the discussion has pivoted to discussing BS stops by cops. (The Justice Dept. did a similar pivot in the Ferguson investigation.)
The NYTimes article states that black folk are disproportionately roughly treated by cops, but not lethally shot. Elsewhere, I think there's also support for disproportionate BS Stops of black people. And, no doubt, one follows the other.

Are BS Stops are the root of (or significant factor in) the Cop Hate in Black N'hoods? Is this supported by research? Intuition?
I'm asking; I don't know.

And how to tease apart all that from disproportionate criminal achievement in black n'hoods? If that's even possible.

Grandpa's Spells · Post by **Grandpa's Spells** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:37 pm

Turdacious wrote:
Grandpa's Spells wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/won ... drivers-2/

This is not quite what I stated but the quickest reference I can find. The actual study was cited a fair bit during the Ferguson thing.
IMHO one of the primary jobs of LEOs is to protect legitimate commerce and property values. Commerce does better in areas with low property and violent crime, and there is a definite correlation between crime and property values. By this logic, keeping violent and property crime rates low is what cops are paid to do.

Blaidd Drwg · Post by **Blaidd Drwg** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:41 pm

Intuitive responses only...

johno wrote:Are BS Stops are the root of (or significant factor in) the Cop Hate in Black N'hoods? .

I've met at least 3 porkers in the last 7 years that I think are among the best humans I know. That said, Cops being Cops in their native habitat is absolutely at the heart of my significant prejudice against them. I've watched too much malfeasant behavior by our Dear Little Friends in Blue to ever turn my back on one. If I were black I can't even contemplate how much worse it would be.

johno wrote:And how to tease apart all that from disproportionate criminal achievement in black n'hoods? If that's even possible.

I would imagine impossible to tease apart although I'd love to see someone try.
The thing is, if you've ever done something shady, been close friends with someone shady or been related to someone shady who got popped for whatever reason, you cannot help but understand, our criminal justice system is Adversarial from top to bottom. The entire discussion is framed as good guys bad guys....So if you were raised or lightly associate with someone framed as the bad guys...well it's hard to argue with allegiances that are self perpetuating.

What's shitty in this case is that Black is bit of a red herring. Race is a just a proxy for class. These dynamics are no different in Scotland, Manchester, Ipswich, or any other ghetto in the western world.

Turdacious · Post by **Turdacious** » Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:55 pm

Blaidd Drwg wrote:
Turdacious wrote: IMHO one of the primary jobs of LEOs is to protect legitimate commerce and property values. Commerce does better in areas with low property and violent crime, and there is a definite correlation between crime and property values. By this logic, keeping violent and property crime rates low is what cops are paid to do.

Sloppy wording or sloppy thinking? There is a correlation between perceived crime and perceived value.

There is nothing Police can do to preserve Value. Value is a arbitrary marker assigned by a range of factors in the market. Perhaps you meant "Property Rights".

http://journalistsresource.org/studies/ ... ch-roundup

IGX

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