IGX

nafod wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 2:50 pm

Turdacious wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 12:50 am To me, the better question is not the pros and cons of single payer (there are a lot of pros), but the difficulty of implementing single payer here.

I've always thought figuring out how to untether health care from your job makes sense. Having it the way it is creates a lot of friction in moving labor to where it could be used.

definitely. Unfortunately hhs is an absolute mess, I have no confidence in their ability to manage that.

Or perhaps you don't understand?

Fat Cat wrote: ↑Wed May 20, 2020 9:33 pm

Luke wrote: ↑Wed May 20, 2020 5:27 am

Shafpocalypse Now wrote: ↑Fri May 15, 2020 3:26 pm We need to take the opportunity to fuck health insurance companies over right now.

They are parasites and leeches, and I can think of few industries that need to die a rapid death dragging down their scumbag executives with them more than them.

I pay $119 Australian Dollarydoos to my fund each month. I claim once or twice a year, either for dental or physio or both (maybe 1 of each in 2019 if I recall) My last bill came to $265 of which they gave me an $85 refund. It's the biggest scam going.

Wait just a goddamn minute...so both Luke and Aussie Luke are bush kangaroos?

Yep! Coincidence! On separate coasts.

So how did Aussie Luke choose the name Aussie Luke if he was trying to distinguish himself from the Aussie, Luke?

Turdacious wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 7:40 pm

nafod wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 2:50 pm

Turdacious wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 12:50 am To me, the better question is not the pros and cons of single payer (there are a lot of pros), but the difficulty of implementing single payer here.

I've always thought figuring out how to untether health care from your job makes sense. Having it the way it is creates a lot of friction in moving labor to where it could be used.

definitely. Unfortunately hhs is an absolute mess, I have no confidence in their ability to manage that.

So tell me where I am wrong here on the big moving parts. I understand it is all about the nuance.

Businesses are incentived/required to provide health care. They get some sort of tax break in return. So some dude who just wants to build race cars has to get into the health insurance providing business.

We could get rid of the businesses having to provide this, and provide some sort of incentive to the people directly to get health care (tax break, ala mortgage break), taking the health care business out of your employer's hands and putting it closer to yours.

Doesn't mean centralized single payer insurance.

nafod wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 2:42 pm

Turdacious wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 7:40 pm

nafod wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 2:50 pm

Turdacious wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 12:50 am To me, the better question is not the pros and cons of single payer (there are a lot of pros), but the difficulty of implementing single payer here.

I've always thought figuring out how to untether health care from your job makes sense. Having it the way it is creates a lot of friction in moving labor to where it could be used.

definitely. Unfortunately hhs is an absolute mess, I have no confidence in their ability to manage that.

So tell me where I am wrong here on the big moving parts. I understand it is all about the nuance.

Businesses are incentived/required to provide health care. They get some sort of tax break in return. So some dude who just wants to build race cars has to get into the health insurance providing business.

We could get rid of the businesses having to provide this, and provide some sort of incentive to the people directly to get health care (tax break, ala mortgage break), taking the health care business out of your employer's hands and putting it closer to yours.

Doesn't mean centralized single payer insurance.

Keeping competition in the system is essential.

I was financially compelled into Medicare last year. I have to pay for part of it but it's about 1/8 of what I was paying for my health insurance previously.

So far, I've been part of two "Medicare Advantage" programs with major insurance companies. The insurance company rakes in some gov't money for playing a role in managing my Medicare. Because there is competition, each insurance company offers a variety of incentives to sign on with them. My out of pocket costs for these added benefits is $0/month. Should my health situation change, I may have to change companies and there could be costs associated with that.

I lack the knowledge to redesign our insurance system but I'm living proof that private company competition within a government system works out well for the consumer.

nafod wrote: ↑Fri May 22, 2020 2:42 pm

Turdacious wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 7:40 pm

nafod wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 2:50 pm

Turdacious wrote: ↑Thu May 21, 2020 12:50 am To me, the better question is not the pros and cons of single payer (there are a lot of pros), but the difficulty of implementing single payer here.

I've always thought figuring out how to untether health care from your job makes sense. Having it the way it is creates a lot of friction in moving labor to where it could be used.

definitely. Unfortunately hhs is an absolute mess, I have no confidence in their ability to manage that.

So tell me where I am wrong here on the big moving parts. I understand it is all about the nuance.

Businesses are incentived/required to provide health care. They get some sort of tax break in return. So some dude who just wants to build race cars has to get into the health insurance providing business.

We could get rid of the businesses having to provide this, and provide some sort of incentive to the people directly to get health care (tax break, ala mortgage break), taking the health care business out of your employer's hands and putting it closer to yours.

Doesn't mean centralized single payer insurance.

There are a few things you have to decide first in a scheme like this:
1. Is it subsidized and how (it's usually done on a progressive scale, but where is the cutoff and why)?
2. Is it mandatory and what does that mean (i.e. if you don't have insurance and develop an expensive medical condition, who pays for your care?)?
3. What equity rules do you have (differences in treatment options, wait times, accomodations, etc...-- can wealthier people pay more and get more, or just pay more for the same)?
4. Is it cradle to grave or do we leave Medicare in as a legacy system (keep in mind that seniors are generally the most expensive insurees)?
5. What role do states play and what role does the federal government play?
6. How do you determine subsidies (annually or on a rolling basis, especially as people's incomes can fluctuate like they are right now)?

Other point-- it's not clear that businesses would be worse off if health insurance was untethered from employment. There is a tax break, but there are also pretty onerous compliance requirements. It would definitely change both the business and employment landscapes.

Countries with systems like you're suggesting (like Switzerland) tend to have powerful health care bureaucracies. Most of the reason has to do with cost control (ex. drug prices and accepted uses are generally centrally negotiated and determined) because the government has little ability to shift costs if costs get too high-- they get the budget they get. Our government health care programs haven't developed that ability-- they will underpay and allow hospitals and insurance companies to make up the losses elsewhere, or change the rules midstream, or hammer hospitals with compliance fines a decade after a problem occurred, etc...

This video covers almost every Staten Island stereotype in 22 seconds.

And Chicago only had 10 murders over the holiday weekend!

CDC just confirmed a .2% death-rate for COVID-19. Here’s what we got in return:

* Added nearly 6 trillion to national debt
* Laid-off or furloughed 50 million workers
* Placed 60 million on food stamps
* Gone from 3.5%to 14.7% unemployment
* Crippled the petroleum industry

Fat Cat wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 1:15 am CDC just confirmed a .2% death-rate for COVID-19. Here’s what we got in return:

* Added nearly 6 trillion to national debt
* Laid-off or furloughed 50 million workers
* Placed 60 million on food stamps
* Gone from 3.5%to 14.7% unemployment
* Crippled the petroleum industry

If it saved just one life it was worth it.

DrDonkeyLove... wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 12:35 pm

Fat Cat wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 1:15 am CDC just confirmed a .2% death-rate for COVID-19. Here’s what we got in return:

* Added nearly 6 trillion to national debt
* Laid-off or furloughed 50 million workers
* Placed 60 million on food stamps
* Gone from 3.5%to 14.7% unemployment
* Crippled the petroleum industry

If it saved just one life it was worth it.

complex question.
it could prevent say one death from covid, but add two deaths from other causes.

Of course, cleaner air in cities that are shut down could possibly save tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of lives annually from cardio/pulmonary issues that link back to pollution.
There's a lot of calculus that could be done when this is all over. But it's all going to come out in favor of more restrictions for us, more money for the top.

We didn't shut down the meatpacking industries and we've only killed off 30 or so employees, yet I can only buy two items of meat at the grocery store where I live. Deaths aren't the only metric.

The Danish use more robots in their plants, and so fewer sick. Some interesting videos...

http://slaughterhouse.danishcrown.com/sections

Fat Cat wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 1:15 amCDC just confirmed a .2% death-rate for COVID-19.

3% needing hospitlization, tho.

DrDonkeyLove... wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 12:35 pm

Fat Cat wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 1:15 am CDC just confirmed a .2% death-rate for COVID-19. Here’s what we got in return:

* Added nearly 6 trillion to national debt
* Laid-off or furloughed 50 million workers
* Placed 60 million on food stamps
* Gone from 3.5%to 14.7% unemployment
* Crippled the petroleum industry

If it saved just one life it was worth it.

Absolutely fucking not.

Fat Cat wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 5:31 pm

DrDonkeyLove... wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 12:35 pm

Fat Cat wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 1:15 am CDC just confirmed a .2% death-rate for COVID-19. Here’s what we got in return:

* Added nearly 6 trillion to national debt
* Laid-off or furloughed 50 million workers
* Placed 60 million on food stamps
* Gone from 3.5%to 14.7% unemployment
* Crippled the petroleum industry

If it saved just one life it was worth it.

Absolutely fucking not.

I should have used an irony emoji (if there is such a thing).

nafod wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 1:55 pm We didn't shut down the meatpacking industries and we've only killed off 30 or so employees

Dry your pussy out before posting. We haven't "killed" anyone, any more than someone is "killed" when they die of pneumonia or flu. Don't post shit that even you don't believe.

Fat Cat wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 6:02 pm

nafod wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 1:55 pm We didn't shut down the meatpacking industries and we've only killed off 30 or so employees

Dry your pussy out before posting. We haven't "killed" anyone, any more than someone is "killed" when they die of pneumonia or flu. Don't post shit that even you don't believe.

Low pay, no paid sick leave, pressured to show up, shitty to no PPE or revised procedures to protect themselves with, companies protected from liability suits by the employees thanks to the Defense Production Act (failed to impose any federal rules on how those companies must protect workers from outbreaks of COVID-19).

They died for our hamburgers.

lolwut. "We killed them" because they took a job with low pay? You post a lot of dumb shit but you're piling it high today.

Let me axe you dis: have you stopped eating meat?

nafod wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 6:21 pm

Fat Cat wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 6:02 pm

nafod wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 1:55 pm We didn't shut down the meatpacking industries and we've only killed off 30 or so employees

Dry your pussy out before posting. We haven't "killed" anyone, any more than someone is "killed" when they die of pneumonia or flu. Don't post shit that even you don't believe.

Low pay, no paid sick leave, pressured to show up, shitty to no PPE or revised procedures to protect themselves with, companies protected from liability suits by the employees thanks to the Defense Production Act (failed to impose any federal rules on how those companies must protect workers from outbreaks of COVID-19).

They died for our hamburgers.

So what should companies do when there’s a national PPE shortage?

Turdacious wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 8:00 pm

nafod wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 6:21 pm

Fat Cat wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 6:02 pm

nafod wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 1:55 pm We didn't shut down the meatpacking industries and we've only killed off 30 or so employees

Dry your pussy out before posting. We haven't "killed" anyone, any more than someone is "killed" when they die of pneumonia or flu. Don't post shit that even you don't believe.

Low pay, no paid sick leave, pressured to show up, shitty to no PPE or revised procedures to protect themselves with, companies protected from liability suits by the employees thanks to the Defense Production Act (failed to impose any federal rules on how those companies must protect workers from outbreaks of COVID-19).

They died for our hamburgers.

So what should companies do when there’s a national PPE shortage?

Much like a wartime effort, if it's essential to keeping the nation going you sack up and do the best you can. Then when the crisis is over you assess what went wrong and put heads on pikes and put people in charge who give a fuck. And have massive strikes to make sure the essential workers that keep this shit show on the rails get the compensation they deserve going forward. And I think we all see who is essential to keeping our society going and who is just pushing bits back and forth.

Turdacious wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 8:00 pm

nafod wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 6:21 pm

Fat Cat wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 6:02 pm

nafod wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 1:55 pm We didn't shut down the meatpacking industries and we've only killed off 30 or so employees

Dry your pussy out before posting. We haven't "killed" anyone, any more than someone is "killed" when they die of pneumonia or flu. Don't post shit that even you don't believe.

Low pay, no paid sick leave, pressured to show up, shitty to no PPE or revised procedures to protect themselves with, companies protected from liability suits by the employees thanks to the Defense Production Act (failed to impose any federal rules on how those companies must protect workers from outbreaks of COVID-19).

They died for our hamburgers.

So what should companies do when there’s a national PPE shortage?

Stand down or reduce capacity until they get enough so they can safely continue production.

Which is what has happened, but it was driven by hindsight instead of foresight.

In Moscow since 1st June workout yards will open. In other towns they are mostly alredy opened.
But lockdown still remains till 14th June at least.
And fines if you are outdoors without mask.

nafod wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 8:29 pm

Turdacious wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 8:00 pm

nafod wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 6:21 pm

Fat Cat wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 6:02 pm

nafod wrote: ↑Wed May 27, 2020 1:55 pm We didn't shut down the meatpacking industries and we've only killed off 30 or so employees

Dry your pussy out before posting. We haven't "killed" anyone, any more than someone is "killed" when they die of pneumonia or flu. Don't post shit that even you don't believe.

Low pay, no paid sick leave, pressured to show up, shitty to no PPE or revised procedures to protect themselves with, companies protected from liability suits by the employees thanks to the Defense Production Act (failed to impose any federal rules on how those companies must protect workers from outbreaks of COVID-19).

They died for our hamburgers.

So what should companies do when there’s a national PPE shortage?

Stand down or reduce capacity until they get enough so they can safely continue production.

Which is what has happened, but it was driven by hindsight instead of foresight.

So our pandemic/ economic policy should be driven by personal injury lawyers?