I know that we have other medical types on here and was wondering your take on this. Personally, I think that vaccinations for dangerous diseases such as this are a good thing. While I acknowledge that there can be side effects, the overall effect has been a good thing....whether or not herd immunity is a myth. The very simple equation that early vaccination to deadly and contagious diseases such as this = lives saved is too big a number to ignore.
That being said I know a number of folks that are anti-vaccination. What are your thoughts?
Since the beginning of vaccination, there is little proof that vaccines are responsible for eradicating disease even when herd immunity vaccination levels have been reached. Yet celebrity doctors rattle on about your unvaccinated neighbor being the biggest threat to your child – as if vaccination was the only way to avoid an illness or stay healthy. - See more at: http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2012/ ... qIg9I.dpuf
Dunn wrote:I know that we have other medical types on here and was wondering your take on this. Personally, I think that vaccinations for dangerous diseases such as this are a good thing. While I acknowledge that there can be side effects, the overall effect has been a good thing....whether or not herd immunity is a myth. The very simple equation that early vaccination to deadly and contagious diseases such as this = lives saved is too big a number to ignore.
That being said I know a number of folks that are anti-vaccination. What are your thoughts?
Since the beginning of vaccination, there is little proof that vaccines are responsible for eradicating disease even when herd immunity vaccination levels have been reached. Yet celebrity doctors rattle on about your unvaccinated neighbor being the biggest threat to your child – as if vaccination was the only way to avoid an illness or stay healthy. - See more at: http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2012/ ... qIg9I.dpuf
For some reason people tend to think that evolution is always upwards and improving, but the brain is an expensive energy and developmental cost for an organism, and in the absence of the need of one, will evolve away. Anti-vaccine folks are proof of that.
My view is based on evidence, but I'm old enough to have relatives and friend afflicted with polio. I can barely remember whooping cough since it was uncommon in the late fifties/early sixties,.. now it's on a comeback. Same with German measles, etc. My biggest anger is chiropractors and naturopaths who can't even spell and quote Mercola. Thanks to them... Polio and Measles are ready for a world tour.
"There is only one God, and he doesn't dress like that". - - Captain America
Measles is still the one of the largest killers of children worldwide.
The problem (and I'm not really being facetious) is that we haven't had a plague in the US in some time. I think if people started dropping like flies again, they'd be lining up to get a needle in their arm and those of their children.
I'm a biochemist, I kind of trust science. Its not fool-proof, but most of the arguments against vaccinating are complete and utter bullshit.
Miss Piggy wrote:Never eat more than you can lift.
I'm not anti vaccine, our oldest 2 have had them all. My youngest is on a delayed vaccine protocol. It just extends them out over a longer time period instead of so many at once in a shirt time period. In the end they all get the same stuff. My wife is a nurse and our oldest child has mild autism so she wanted to take this route with the vaccines. I'm not totally bought in on it but I did it for her.
T200 wrote:Drinking is for posers until you are drinking Everclear from a an old freebase kit you found in the park.
Number one, I have a deep suspicion of the for-profit drug manufacturers suggesting shot after shot after shot. It's not like they are below fear mongering to improve their bottomline. A chickenpox vaccine? Really? And with the revolving door between corporate American and Washington D.C., any parent should question the extent to which the CDC's recommendations balance profit with your kids' health.
Number two, the American vaccine protocol is ridiculous when compared to the 'European' protocol. I don't want to look it up but the CDC requires something stupid like 36 vaccines/shots given over a 24 month period in America, whereas in Europe, you get something saner like 15 over a 6 year period. This is a well-reasoned, studied approach. It's not like Europe is filled with idiots who don't understand public health and disease. Yet despite their vaccine approach, Europe is not filled with raging plagues.
That should make any sane person seriously question whether the CDC's recommendations and the extent to which Pharmaceutical industry profits are driving America's vaccine protocol.
Moreover, with the American protocol, you're injecting a lot of viruses, chemicals, preservatives, into young, small bodies. Do the studies take into account the cumulative impact of multiple injections? Do we fully understand what effect, if any, the cumulative build-up of preservatives may or may not do to individuals?
I know, I know. It's all bullshit. Everything is safe. Studies. Why worry. Crazy conspiracies. As long as "the public" is safe, it doesn't matter if a few eggs get broken along the way. Yadda yadda yadda.
T>1200 wrote:Agree with the "delayed vaccine protocol."
Number one, I have a deep suspicion of the for-profit drug manufacturers suggesting shot after shot after shot. It's not like they are below fear mongering to improve their bottomline. A chickenpox vaccine? Really? And with the revolving door between corporate American and Washington D.C., any parent should question the extent to which the CDC's recommendations balance profit with your kids' health.
Number two, the American vaccine protocol is ridiculous when compared to the 'European' protocol. I don't want to look it up but the CDC requires something stupid like 36 vaccines/shots given over a 24 month period in America, whereas in Europe, you get something saner like 15 over a 6 year period. This is a well-reasoned, studied approach. It's not like Europe is filled with idiots who don't understand public health and disease. Yet despite their vaccine approach, Europe is not filled with raging plagues.
That should make any sane person seriously question whether the CDC's recommendations and the extent to which Pharmaceutical industry profits are driving America's vaccine protocol.
Moreover, with the American protocol, you're injecting a lot of viruses, chemicals, preservatives, into young, small bodies. Do the studies take into account the cumulative impact of multiple injections? Do we fully understand what effect, if any, the cumulative build-up of preservatives may or may not do to individuals?
I know, I know. It's all bullshit. Everything is safe. Studies. Why worry. Crazy conspiracies. As long as "the public" is safe, it doesn't matter if a few eggs get broken along the way. Yadda yadda yadda.
This. We spread them out for our daughter and only got the major ones. LOL at the new ones like Chicken Pox, flu, and diarrhea. Yes, fucking diarrhea.
And adjunctivants are neurotoxins. Sure, most people can handle it due to their genetics, but fuck taking a risk by injecting a shit load of it in a short period of time.
T>1200 wrote:Agree with the "delayed vaccine protocol."
Number one, I have a deep suspicion of the for-profit drug manufacturers suggesting shot after shot after shot. It's not like they are below fear mongering to improve their bottomline. A chickenpox vaccine? Really? And with the revolving door between corporate American and Washington D.C., any parent should question the extent to which the CDC's recommendations balance profit with your kids' health.
Number two, the American vaccine protocol is ridiculous when compared to the 'European' protocol. I don't want to look it up but the CDC requires something stupid like 36 vaccines/shots given over a 24 month period in America, whereas in Europe, you get something saner like 15 over a 6 year period. This is a well-reasoned, studied approach. It's not like Europe is filled with idiots who don't understand public health and disease. Yet despite their vaccine approach, Europe is not filled with raging plagues.
That should make any sane person seriously question whether the CDC's recommendations and the extent to which Pharmaceutical industry profits are driving America's vaccine protocol.
Moreover, with the American protocol, you're injecting a lot of viruses, chemicals, preservatives, into young, small bodies. Do the studies take into account the cumulative impact of multiple injections? Do we fully understand what effect, if any, the cumulative build-up of preservatives may or may not do to individuals?
I know, I know. It's all bullshit. Everything is safe. Studies. Why worry. Crazy conspiracies. As long as "the public" is safe, it doesn't matter if a few eggs get broken along the way. Yadda yadda yadda.
This. We spread them out for our daughter and only got the major ones. LOL at the new ones like Chicken Pox, flu, and diarrhea. Yes, fucking diarrhea.
And adjunctivants are neurotoxins. Sure, most people can handle it due to their genetics, but fuck taking a risk by injecting a shit load of it in a short period of time.
It's pretty hard to argue that vaccines haven't made the world a better place though it's nearly as hard to argue that kids in the US need more than three times as many vaccinations as kids in East Asia or Northern Europe.
WildGorillaMan wrote:Enthusiasm combined with no skill whatsoever can sometimes carry the day.
The fact that a untalented playboy bunny is the spokesperson for the anti-vaccination movement is all you need to know about the anti-vaccination movement.
Up until before WWII, something like 1 out of 3 children died before reaching adulthood and women stood a good chance of dying during child birth. Not to mention the number of children crippled by various diseases. The further back in time you go, the stats only get worse and worse. There was a reason for such large families other than free labor on the farm back in the day. Vaccinations played a huge part bringing the infant & child mortality rate down in the developed world.
Like everyone else in this thread has stated, get the shots for the big shit. Life is hard enough without having to bury one of your children or having them go through life crippled.
BTW- the vaccination council can go suck a bag of dicks. Unvaccinated children are threat to OTHER UNVACCINATED Children.
Arms are the only true badge of liberty. The possession of arms is the distinction of the free man from the slave.
tough old man wrote:Dont be a fucking idiot. Get your shots.
Anyone who doesn't has never traveled to the 3rd world or read a book. Public health is the main reason that this is the first world, FYI. More people died of Spanish flu than as the result of both world wars combined.
And adjunctivants are neurotoxins. Sure, most people can handle it due to their genetics, but fuck taking a risk by injecting a shit load of it in a short period of time.
Reminds me of the hipsters who call "Equal" a neurotoxin while getting shot up with botox.
All the vaccine deniers can go to the hub of African and deal with polio there.
"There is only one God, and he doesn't dress like that". - - Captain America
T>1200 wrote:Agree with the "delayed vaccine protocol."
Number one, I have a deep suspicion of the for-profit drug manufacturers suggesting shot after shot after shot. It's not like they are below fear mongering to improve their bottomline. A chickenpox vaccine? Really? And with the revolving door between corporate American and Washington D.C., any parent should question the extent to which the CDC's recommendations balance profit with your kids' health.
Number two, the American vaccine protocol is ridiculous when compared to the 'European' protocol. I don't want to look it up but the CDC requires something stupid like 36 vaccines/shots given over a 24 month period in America, whereas in Europe, you get something saner like 15 over a 6 year period. This is a well-reasoned, studied approach. It's not like Europe is filled with idiots who don't understand public health and disease. Yet despite their vaccine approach, Europe is not filled with raging plagues.
That should make any sane person seriously question whether the CDC's recommendations and the extent to which Pharmaceutical industry profits are driving America's vaccine protocol.
Moreover, with the American protocol, you're injecting a lot of viruses, chemicals, preservatives, into young, small bodies. Do the studies take into account the cumulative impact of multiple injections? Do we fully understand what effect, if any, the cumulative build-up of preservatives may or may not do to individuals?
I know, I know. It's all bullshit. Everything is safe. Studies. Why worry. Crazy conspiracies. As long as "the public" is safe, it doesn't matter if a few eggs get broken along the way. Yadda yadda yadda.
This. We spread them out for our daughter and only got the major ones. LOL at the new ones like Chicken Pox, flu, and diarrhea. Yes, fucking diarrhea.
And adjunctivants are neurotoxins. Sure, most people can handle it due to their genetics, but fuck taking a risk by injecting a shit load of it in a short period of time.
It's pretty hard to argue that vaccines haven't made the world a better place though it's nearly as hard to argue that kids in the US need more than three times as many vaccinations as kids in East Asia or Northern Europe.
Polio, MMR, DTAP, couple others and you're good to go. Which is all that everyone posting here over 30 or so ever had, unless they travelled across the world somewhere.
And adjunctivants are neurotoxins. Sure, most people can handle it due to their genetics, but fuck taking a risk by injecting a shit load of it in a short period of time.
Reminds me of the hipsters who call "Equal" a neurotoxin while getting shot up with botox.
All the vaccine deniers can go to the hub of African and deal with polio there.
A well-reasoned argument like yours is hard to ignore.
First off, Dunn, look at the issues Amish and Mennonite communities have had in the last 10 years. Pretty compelling with the loss of herd immunity in small pops.
I'm for the Euro schedule, however all my kids have gotten all their shots.
I usually get a flu shot, so does my wife and daughter. No issues, ever. No flu either
That this is even a legit discussion is akin to the fucking creationism vs evolution bull shit. I work so hard talking to patients about this shit to remain calm and understanding but in this forum I am going to let go a little bit because this shit is goddamn retarded. Why do people even pay for insurance to go to the doctor if their education and expertise is going to be completely ignored?? The level of consensus among practicing physicians on this issue should give a little insight into what the reality is.
As a Physician I have experience compromising with patients and doing delayed schedules to make Mom and Dad feel better, but that is the ONLY reason it is ever done - because slow compliance is better than none. When I have more time later I will find you the study done that showed you could take a fucking 2 month old and give them every single shot in the US series that they would receive over 2 years and administer them all at once and you would only be using like 1/1000 of the kids immune system. Even at that young age. We do not do it that way because the volume would be very large, and the immune system will not retain long term immunity as well but it could be done SAFELY!!!! So think about that the next time someone tells you 4 or 5 shots is "just to much for little Jimmy to handle!".
As a parent I understand watching your kid get stuck with a needle and be injected with chemicals that most people don't understand is scary. They have negative memories from their childhood and want to spare their children the stress and emotional trauma they went through. But it is very very sad to see that irrational fear and emotional thinking take precedence over what is best for a child's long term health and well being along with the health and well being of the society as a whole.
I have a host of sources I will can dig out later for ya'll but for now my word is all you get. Vaccines are VERY (not 100%) safe, the overall risk is minuscule compared to the benefit both to the individual and society at large, they will not give your kid autism or any other stupid shit like that, and Doctor's are not in cahoots with "big pharma" to make millions off your stupid ass kid's shots. In fact most pharmaceutical companies lose money off their vaccine divisions. And the next time some fucking chiropractor or god damn naturopath tells you to avoid FDA, CDC, WHO, AAP, AAFP approved vaccines but to take their ridiculously expensive, unregulated supplements instead because they are "natural", tell them to FUCK OFF.
"I swear by my life and by my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine"
CharlieBob wrote:That this is even a legit discussion is akin to the fucking creationism vs evolution bull shit. I work so hard talking to patients about this shit to remain calm and understanding but in this forum I am going to let go a little bit because this shit is goddamn retarded. Why do people even pay for insurance to go to the doctor if their education and expertise is going to be completely ignored?? The level of consensus among practicing physicians on this issue should give a little insight into what the reality is.
As a Physician I have experience compromising with patients and doing delayed schedules to make Mom and Dad feel better, but that is the ONLY reason it is ever done - because slow compliance is better than none. When I have more time later I will find you the study done that showed you could take a fucking 2 month old and give them every single shot in the US series that they would receive over 2 years and administer them all at once and you would only be using like 1/1000 of the kids immune system. Even at that young age. We do not do it that way because the volume would be very large, and the immune system will not retain long term immunity as well but it could be done SAFELY!!!! So think about that the next time someone tells you 4 or 5 shots is "just to much for little Jimmy to handle!".
As a parent I understand watching your kid get stuck with a needle and be injected with chemicals that most people don't understand is scary. They have negative memories from their childhood and want to spare their children the stress and emotional trauma they went through. But it is very very sad to see that irrational fear and emotional thinking take precedence over what is best for a child's long term health and well being along with the health and well being of the society as a whole.
I have a host of sources I will can dig out later for ya'll but for now my word is all you get. Vaccines are VERY (not 100%) safe, the overall risk is minuscule compared to the benefit both to the individual and society at large, they will not give your kid autism or any other stupid shit like that, and Doctor's are not in cahoots with "big pharma" to make millions off your stupid ass kid's shots. In fact most pharmaceutical companies lose money off their vaccine divisions. And the next time some fucking chiropractor or god damn naturopath tells you to avoid FDA, CDC, WHO, AAP, AAFP approved vaccines but to take their ridiculously expensive, unregulated supplements instead because they are "natural", tell them to FUCK OFF.
I admit I don't understand a lot of things but I have a question about something I have heard and perhaps you can explain it to me. I have heard that some of the very old vaccinations done long ago may not be active today because of a lack of exposure over the years because that particular thing is basically non existent today in the US. So one - is this true, does that happen - and two if so, should "boosters" or whatever be done after a certain point? My childhood shots were done in the late 40s early 50s for example - now the military saw fit to inoculate me against most things I ever heard of before my visit to the jungles but not some of the things we see today perhaps. Just curious - sorry if I sound like a dummy here :).
climber511 wrote:
I admit I don't understand a lot of things but I have a question about something I have heard and perhaps you can explain it to me. I have heard that some of the very old vaccinations done long ago may not be active today because of a lack of exposure over the years because that particular thing is basically non existent today in the US. So one - is this true, does that happen - and two if so, should "boosters" or whatever be done after a certain point? My childhood shots were done in the late 40s early 50s for example - now the military saw fit to inoculate me against most things I ever heard of before my visit to the jungles but not some of the things we see today perhaps. Just curious - sorry if I sound like a dummy here :).
I will never fault someone for not knowing something and asking a question, in fact I will applaud you. Only if you decide you don't like the answer and ignore it will I make fun of you :).
Vaccines have absolutely changed over time, becoming more refined to better stimulate the immune system in order to develop multiple defenses against a single pathogen and provoke a longer memory. That said if you were getting your childhood vaccines in the 40s-50s then you are old enough to have been exposed to a lot more than kids today. So whether you got immunity through vaccines or exposures you are probably covered for most of what the childhood vaccines cover. That would put you in an age range though where you should be seriously considering vaccines against Pneumococcus, Pertussis (Tdap), and Varicella (chicken pox/shingles), and the yearly flu. Most important in my opinion would be the pneumococcus (for Strep. Pneumonia the major cause of bacterial pneumonia). Pneumonia is a major cause of death in the older population, I have seen it first hand, and anything you can do to minimize your risk is beneficial.
"I swear by my life and by my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine"
CharlieBob wrote:Why do people even pay for insurance to go to the doctor if their education and expertise is going to be completely ignored?? The level of consensus among practicing physicians . . . .
Perhaps you're an exception but I've rarely encountered a group with less intellectual curiosity and analytical horsepower than physicians. My experience is they're glorified guessing machines who are at least two steps behind the published literature and fed information by various moneyed interests.
That you point to "consensus" doesn't improve my impression.
That you also purport to KNOW ABSOLUTELY THAT EVERYTHING IS SAFE furthers my estimation of physicians. No offense. But the number of things physicians have erroneously "known absolutely" to be safe, effective, etc. is quite large.
Lastly, your disdain for ignorant, evolutionist parents who disagree with you reinforces everyone's worst impression of physicians: all-knowing, arrogant SOBs.
climber511 wrote:
I admit I don't understand a lot of things but I have a question about something I have heard and perhaps you can explain it to me. I have heard that some of the very old vaccinations done long ago may not be active today because of a lack of exposure over the years because that particular thing is basically non existent today in the US. So one - is this true, does that happen - and two if so, should "boosters" or whatever be done after a certain point? My childhood shots were done in the late 40s early 50s for example - now the military saw fit to inoculate me against most things I ever heard of before my visit to the jungles but not some of the things we see today perhaps. Just curious - sorry if I sound like a dummy here :).
I will never fault someone for not knowing something and asking a question, in fact I will applaud you. Only if you decide you don't like the answer and ignore it will I make fun of you :).
Vaccines have absolutely changed over time, becoming more refined to better stimulate the immune system in order to develop multiple defenses against a single pathogen and provoke a longer memory. That said if you were getting your childhood vaccines in the 40s-50s then you are old enough to have been exposed to a lot more than kids today. So whether you got immunity through vaccines or exposures you are probably covered for most of what the childhood vaccines cover. That would put you in an age range though where you should be seriously considering vaccines against Pneumococcus, Pertussis (Tdap), and Varicella (chicken pox/shingles), and the yearly flu. Most important in my opinion would be the pneumococcus (for Strep. Pneumonia the major cause of bacterial pneumonia). Pneumonia is a major cause of death in the older population, I have seen it first hand, and anything you can do to minimize your risk is beneficial.
I had the pneumonia shot maybe 15? years ago - not sure if that one has a booster or if its a one and done thing? I have not had the shingles one and the only flu shot I ever got made me sick as hell - years ago - so i have passed that one since.
