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Forums › Free Speech › Choosing Wisely
Alright seven members of this site (my apologies if we are up to eight)…
A question has come up, so open up your hive mind and help a douchebag out.
We’ve all had moments where we let some minor thing go, stood up to an asshole, or acted kindly even though we really didn’t want to…and it was the right choice…and made that particular day, way fucking better.
Any idea how do we make those correct choices more often?
Not interested in your moral failings, but any successful anecdotes toss ’em in here.
Some examples:
Surfing…guy ruthlessly cuts me off as I paddle into the first wave, the mind sez: “Maybe the next one will be better.” Head pivots to sea, as an incredible wave is headed perfectly towards me. Proceed to catch great waves, non-stop, for hours.
Surfing…some kids are taking every wave that is coming through. Paddle over, introduce myself, then kindly explain surfing etiquette. Two years later, surfing with some randoms, it turns out it’s one the kids, who says how helpful that conversation was, and how he never forgot it.
Surfing…some dude is sitting almost on top of me, battling me for every wave. Decide to genuinely compliment him on his next wave, he smiles, introduces himself, and literally seemed to vanish. Rest of session, surfed in peace.
Got a shit ton of failures (silently seething, screaming at people, threatening), but that part is uninteresting.
Some examples: Surfing…guy ruthlessly cuts me off as I paddle into the first wave, the mind sez: “Maybe the next one will be better.” Head pivots to sea, as an incredible wave is headed perfectly towards me. Proceed to catch great waves, non-stop, for hours. Surfing…some kids are taking every wave that is coming through. Paddle over, introduce myself, then kindly explain surfing etiquette. Two years later, surfing with some randoms, it turns out it’s one the kids, who says how helpful that conversation was, and how he never forgot it. Surfing…some dude is sitting almost on top of me, battling me for every wave. Decide to genuinely compliment him on his next wave, he smiles, introduces himself, and literally seemed to vanish. Rest of session, surfed in peace. Got a shit ton of failures (silently seething, screaming at people, threatening), but that part is uninteresting.
Nice!
Thanks, Mickey!
This question was sent out to friends as well, and got this great story back:
“One [experience] in particular that happened recently came to mind. Although I’m not entirely sure it’s the answer or perspective you’re looking for as there was no typical *moment* at the end of it.
First and foremost let me preface this by saying I care deeply about my role and job. I am very passionate and a bit of a perfectionist so I often go above and beyond for our Clients and listings without being asked.
We recently had a Client whom off the bat did not like me – sometimes you can just tell – no big deal in my world as I always give the same service to you whether you enjoy me or not. This listing was a beautiful house in [redacted] and the seller just so happened to be related to my boss so we wanted to ensure we did an extra great job for her.
I spent countless hours getting the listing ready to market – arriving at the house at 5am 3 days in a row, staying well past my normal business hours, even staying until 9pm one night to ensure the photographer got all the twilight photos he needed and everything was perfect.
The day after the photos were taken she had gone to the property to “inspect” it – upon her walking in I receive several hostile texts in a row detailing all of the areas that “I was too stupid to miss” down to the mirror being hung 2 inches too high for her preference etc. She proceeded to call my boss and tell him I should not have a job and that I was a liar and just generally lazy and a horrid excuse for a real estate professional. (Her words, not mine.)
Fully expecting my boss to have her side as they were related, I burst into tears as the stress of getting the house to market and hearing terrible feedback was too much in that moment.
Turns out my boss actually had my back and it was essentially my idea to keep the listing as we had already come this far. I spent a day being pretty bitter at her nastiness but ultimately decided to be the bigger person as sometimes we are just going through a hard time and need a whipping boy.
I did some Facebook stalking to see what her favorite wines and treats were and procured her a gift basket. I wrote a card explaining that I was sorry for her experience working with me and ultimately I understand how stressful moving is, etc. etc.
We ended up getting her house sold for $130,000 over asking price in under 30 days. She continued to be terrible to me the entire time and never said thank you to us for the work we had put in.
I don’t regret showing up as the bigger person though – I learned through that and some other experiences this past year that although tough, sometimes being zen or being the bigger person in situations allows you to walk away from the interactions with no regret or blame. I walked away knowing I did everything I possibly could to remedy that relationship and it was her that decided it was rancid. I’m not sure if that makes sense but it’s helped me in recent months to think of things that way.
Also that people stick up for you more than you think!”
There’s a saying we all know that if you wrestle a pig, you will both get covered in shit and the pig likes it.
Also this, when the shit hits the fan, it doesn’t matter who turned it on, everyone standing nearby gets covered.
Some people deserve to be punched in the face, but walking away with your own dignity in tact is always more important. My dad always told me that as soon as you lose your temper, you’ve already lost the argument. Doesn’t matter who’s right.
Thanks, Ron 🙂
This thread was started due to cutting someone surfing on Sunday (they didn’t wait their turn, one time, so I tried to run them off the wave). Then I felt angry at that person for thirty minutes. My actions were incorrect — yes they stopped cutting in line, but it wasn’t achieved with a clear state of mind (it is hard to surf when you’re focused on others vs. waves).
I’m happy that occasionally I do the right thing, but the reality is my decision making process is flawed.
Am hoping that by asking you all to share, perhaps a common element would emerge of knowing when to (a) be assertive, (b) let things go, or (c) be kind.
Those seem to be the three “wise” solutions, but which one to use in the moment is a puzzle.
There’s a saying we all know that if you wrestle a pig, you will both get covered in shit and the pig likes it. Also this, when the shit hits the fan, it doesn’t matter who turned it on, everyone standing nearby gets covered. Some people deserve to be punched in the face, but walking away with your own dignity in tact is always more important. My dad always told me that as soon as you lose your temper, you’ve already lost the argument. Doesn’t matter who’s right.
Your dad sounds like a good man. 🙂
Saw this yesterday, and laughed:
Had another thing happened recently that felt like the right pick:
About 18 months ago, while working with a personal training client, they laid in to me for the final ten minutes of our session: “You’re a loser, you’re gonna die alone, no one will want to be friends with you, no one will want to date you,” on and on. And as this was happening, I was trying to keep my composure, “Okay, keep your shoulders back.” When the session ended, they immediately began apologizing, but I felt this was just an absurd situation. I quickly got out of there, then later sent an e-mail telling them I wouldn’t be working with them in the future, and they were going to receive all their money back for their training sessions.
A week later, this same person went into a brand-new local speciality grocery store and laid in to the owner: telling them they didn’t have a wide enough array of fancy cheeses and they were doomed to fail. The owner (who had put a lot of money into this store) was quite upset.
I’ve seen this person a handful of times since the incident, but never exchanged words. So randomly last week, in Boulder, Colorado (I live in San Diego), this person walks within two feet of me. And I was in such a good mood from hanging out with family and having a fun trip, that I called out his name. I immediately dismissed our previous encounter (something like “Hey, I’m sorry how everything went down”), then asked how he was doing, met his partner and best friend, chatted for fifteen minutes, exchanged hugs, and ended on a highly positive note.
Afterwards, I told a friend it felt like if home was a white board, then a mark of negativity was erased off it.
Hope this story resonates with someone 🙂
Had another thing happened recently that felt like the right pick: About 18 months ago, while working with a personal training client, they laid in to me for the final ten minutes of our session: “You’re a loser, you’re gonna die alone, no one will want to be friends with you, no one will want to date you,” on and on. And as this was happening, I was trying to keep my composure, “Okay, keep your shoulders back.” When the session ended, they immediately began apologizing, but I felt this was just an absurd situation. I quickly got out of there, then later sent an e-mail telling them I wouldn’t be working with them in the future, and they were going to receive all their money back for their training sessions. A week later, this same person went into a brand-new local speciality grocery store and laid in to the owner: telling them they didn’t have a wide enough array of fancy cheeses and they were doomed to fail. The owner (who had put a lot of money into this store) was quite upset. I’ve seen this person a handful of times since the incident, but never exchanged words. So randomly last week, in Boulder, Colorado (I live in San Diego), this person walks within two feet of me. And I was in such a good mood from hanging out with family and having a fun trip, that I called out his name. I immediately dismissed our previous encounter (something like “Hey, I’m sorry how everything went down”), then asked how he was doing, met his partner and best friend, chatted for fifteen minutes, exchanged hugs, and ended on a highly positive note. Afterwards, I told a friend it felt like if home was a white board, then a mark of negativity was erased off it. Hope this story resonates with someone
That person is what’s referred to as “an asshole” – all you did was reaffirm their internal narrative that they can treat people like shit, and people will still treat them well. i.e. poor training…
Your earlier examples appear to be ‘wise choices’, this one, not so much. “Being nice” isn’t a wise choice by itself – only “being nice, at the right times”.
Stick
Stick,
Appreciate you weighing in! And you may be 100% correct, the guy acted like a huge asshole in that moment (as well as to the grocery owner).
My current evaluation system is this:
Is my mind filled with negativity when dealing with (or thinking of) person or situation XYZ?
If so, then my reaction is incorrect.
Anything clouding my focus in life takes away from living.
I don’t ever have to train this guy again, expose myself to a situation like that, or stand by and let it happen. But, I can see him in passing and smile and have my mind be clear and empty. That beats the previous 18 months of antipathy at the mention or sight of him.
Stick, Appreciate you weighing in! And you may be 100% correct, the guy acted like a huge asshole in that moment (as well as to the grocery owner). My current evaluation system is this: Is my mind filled with negativity when dealing with (or thinking of) person or situation XYZ? If so, then my reaction is incorrect. Anything clouding my focus in life takes away from living. I don’t ever have to train this guy again, expose myself to a situation like that, or stand by and let it happen. But, I can see him in passing and smile and have my mind be clear and empty. That beats the previous 18 months of antipathy at the mention or sight of him.
Fair point, but I think you can also recognize him as “persona non grata” without carrying the burden of his behavior. You don’t need to (nor should you) spend energy hating him, just don’t feed him. There are people that are beyond redemption, or rehabilitation, and you can destroy your own mental well-being trying to change them, or obsessing over it. The closer they are to you, the harder it is, but the only “solution” is to let them be – neither antagonize, nor appease. Give them neither scorn nor approbation. Not hating them is for your well-being, not reinforcing their behavior is for everyone else’s.
Stick
Fair point, but I think you can also recognize him as “persona non grata” without carrying the burden of his behavior. You don’t need to (nor should you) spend energy hating him, just don’t feed him. There are people that are beyond redemption, or rehabilitation, and you can destroy your own mental well-being trying to change them, or obsessing over it. The closer they are to you, the harder it is, but the only “solution” is to let them be – neither antagonize, nor appease. Give them neither scorn nor approbation. Not hating them is for your well-being, not reinforcing their behavior is for everyone else’s. Stick
I think we’re on the same page here. He’s just a guy I can now pass by without issue.
Changing other’s behavior is a whole separate issue. I’m both a personal trainer and a concerned family member (with at least three members battling severe depression), and influencing, or inspiring others, is a massively difficult undertaking.
Case in point, my cousin who suffers from depression, and whom I’ve talked to almost daily for years. I finally had an impact on him. We worked out together three times in the week I visited (keeping it very doable), I made him an easy workout routine to follow, we did yoga, we climbed, we invited his friends over for a game night. Since I’ve left: he’s done the routine, he’s met with a friend for frisbee golf, he’s ran, done yoga, and went for a bike ride.
No idea why this time it clicked, but it’s cool to see it take hold.
This thread sounds like a good way to set yourself up to be walked on repeatedly.
It’s not about starting a fight at every chance, or taking it when it’s presented, but the idea of sending someone a gift basket, like the real estate example, is batshit insane to me. Keep the listing, sure, and definitely work hard because a 3%-5% commission on hundreds of thousands of dollars is worth it, but I don’t get gifts and apologies when someone is being a cunt.
On the streets or waves or whatever is a little different because a physical confrontation can end up with someone seriously injured or dead, and that’s rarely worth it. The waves especially, since the closest approximation I can think of is two drivers starting to compete on a freeway and putting everyone else at risk because one cut the other off or something. Then it’s not about you and the other guy, but everyone else within close enough distance to get wiped out and gravely injured or killed.
However, one thing I learned from the best coach I ever had, was that if you do find yourself in a spot you think it’s worth it to fight, you had better make sure you’re ready to win in a decisive way. If you’re not ready for that, find a way out, or simply turn and run and hope you’re faster. The risk of serious injury or death necessitates a different approach.
Same thing with interpersonal conflict that isn’t going to lead to violence. If you’re not ready to fuck this person’s mind up, then simply disengage. No need to smile or apologize, but you don’t need that stress. For me, to suck it up and apologize is difficult, but something I still do freely when it’s warranted by something I did or said, but essentially never if someone is being an asshole. I don’t care what’s going on in their life, or how shitty of a day they’re having. Basic decency isn’t hard.
Life’s complicated.
I’m not trying to have bad energy with anyone. Sometimes that necessitates standing up for yourself, sometimes that means an open discussion with the other person, sometimes it means letting things go.
If you feel shitty afterwards, I’d argue that you made the wrong choice.
This thread sounds like a good way to set yourself up to be walked on repeatedly. It’s not about starting a fight at every chance, or taking it when it’s presented, but the idea of sending someone a gift basket, like the real estate example, is batshit insane to me.
I don’t care what’s going on in their life, or how shitty of a day they’re having. Basic decency isn’t hard.
I agree for the most part with Baffled on this. Bram, you sound like a genuinely nice guy. Have you talked with any buddies about how you handled these situations? Maybe it’s a generational difference that I don’t get.
Baffled’s comment about what’s going on in their life, or how shitty of a day they’re having reminds me of an old co-worker named Clarence. Clarence was a late-60’s guy, who worked parttime at our ceramics company. He was an experienced truck driver for short runs with our dump truck, or occasionally hopped on a forklift truck to load a truck. Clarence was always cheerful, and asked how we were doing, if we were having a good day. He had a bum leg, and it was difficult climbing up into the cab, or climbing down to work the dump mechanism, usually at the county dump. This was not an easy job for a 68 or 69 y.o. guy with a bum leg. I asked his boss why Clarence was still working, and how he remained so cheerful. His boss, said Clarence’s wife was slowly dying of cancer, so the extra money came in handy. And his no-good son, had just been arrested for the 2nd or 3rd time for dealing drugs. The last time, one of his live-in girlfriends overdosed in the son’s apartment.
If Clarence, could be cheerful with all the shit going on his life, then I could too. He became my role model, to treat other people well, and not act like an asshole, even if my day was not going well. And I’m not implying that you(Bram) acted like an a-hole.
Thanks for sharing, Dik!
Someone who can behave like Clarence, shining forth positivity while undergoing a number of truly negative circumstances….I hope him and his family got through all that shit.
Addressing Baffled’s point about my friend and the gift basket: I didn’t ask her for emotional details in the aftermath of that situation, I was honestly shocked at that story and kept waiting for a moment where the rude woman she was dealing with turned around her attitude. I suppose I felt in questioning her actions, I might dissuade her from being so kind in the future. I have to believe that if we feel good we handle things (like with the personal training client I randomly encountered), then I think “case closed.” She might still feel shitty about it, and then I would argue she didn’t handle it optimally. Or maybe she’s proud that she took the high road, and I would argue that she did well.
Dik, I talked to many, many people about these kind of situations. Here were two other stories that stood out.
A friend (in his late 50’s) was helping his wife and family out of the car in front of his house. A van rushes by and cracks him right in the face with a warm water balloon. He tells his oldest son (late 20’s) to get in the car and they pursue the van for blocks. Finally swerving in front of it, cutting the engine and trapping it. He reaches through the driver’s window, yanks the keys out, tosses them on the ground, then grabs the driver and starts dragging him out of the window by his shirt, while his son is pounding on the passenger window. In the middle of his rage, he notices two teen-age girls screaming and crying in the back seat and notices the kids in the front are 16-18 years old. He tells them, “If I ever see you here again I’ll kill you,” and gets in his car and drives off. He says he never regretted the way he handled it.
A friend (in his late 20’s) is leaving work and someone swerves through a red light, almost hitting him, while yelling, “FUCK OFF!” He decides to follow them, pulling up alongside the van (another van, yes) and pounding on the passenger window. The back of the van opens to show a girl who’s been shot in the chest and a number of gang members standing around her. The passenger points a gun at my buddy’s face and says, “Do you want to die today?” He says no, then drives off as quick as he can.
I do not think there are one-size-fits-all solutions.
Couple more notes on this:
Had another random surf experience this week with somebody giving me dirty looks and hassling me for waves. After twenty minutes of this, I asked his buddy what this guy’s name was. After he got his next wave, I called out in a friendly manner, “Hey X, how’s your week going? Score any good waves?” Instantly he was super friendly, chatted happily about his week, and stopped the weird vibes/hassling.
Secondly, I got an upstairs neighbor who hit me up today, complaining about the guy below her (he’s an incredibly sweet-mannered lawyer, but whose parents have had near-death scares the past few months, so he’s maybe stressed?). She talked about an ongoing conflict over noise between the two of them. Although she seemed quite upset, I talked about the options discussed in this thread (A) let go (B) keep firm boundaries, or (C) be kind, and she agreed to leave him a nice note apologizing for any noise she had made, along with her number so he can let her know in the future if she’s being noisy. Pretty stoked to share a non-escalating, conflict resolution approach with someone else 🙂
Bram, most of the last couple posts you made are just common sense. That’s not meant as a knock, but it does highlight the need for context. I’m still of the mind, maybe more so now, that if someone is an outright asshole to me, the last thing I’d do is apologize or give them a gift of some sort. I may ask if there’s a way to resolve it and get on a better footing, but in 0/100 instances will I be the one apologizing.
A dipshit nails me in the face with a water balloon, which can cause a fair amount of harm if it’s from a moving vehicle, or even worse does it to my girlfriend and the boys, and I will go to a dark place very quickly. T
Side swiped? Call the cops if you must, or give thanks that it wasn’t your turn to get injured or killed in a car accident.
Being nice or smoothing things over around people you have to be near and in a semi-dangerous situation like surfing is just smart and could widen your circle of like minded people.
Intervening before something happens is just good thinking.
Showing someone you won’t put up with their shit can save you a lot of problems.
I’d put that into the “firm boundaries” category.
My friend who bought the gift basket for the rude client…..she could have handled it differently…but her take was she did everything she could in that situation to make the client happy, and felt a personal victory in not having her service suffer.
I know her personally (we dated briefly), and she came from very little to the position she’s at today: a high school diploma, grew up in a trailer park, with a shitty single mom, who stole her inheritance, and told her she was a loser at every opportunity.
For her, the chance to excel at this job means a lot more than right-or-wrong with some random rude fucking woman who had an issue for God knows what reason. Now, maybe in the future she will stand up for herself in a similar situation, but I get how she can feel good currently about rising above it.
The real impetus behind this thread comes from about six weeks ago, where a motorcyclist hit my mirror super hard while waiting for a light (assume he was trying to inch his bike around my car). I turned to figure out what the noise was and he did the “come at me bro” crab-arm posture.
I opted to do nothing, to let it go. Felt like a coward.
Two days after that, a guy did something rude surfing and I opted to ram straight into him if necessary. He tried it again thirty minutes later and I acted the same way, causing him to get out of the way, and with no more bad vibes after. Felt good about that one.
I do think standing your ground is important, and don’t think kindness or letting go solves all problems — if your goal is to feel good about yourself afterwards.
I got an upstairs neighbor who hit me up today, complaining about the guy below her (he’s an incredibly sweet-mannered lawyer, but whose parents have had near-death scares the past few months, so he’s maybe stressed?). She talked about an ongoing conflict over noise between the two of them. Although she seemed quite upset, I talked about the options discussed in this thread (A) let go (B) keep firm boundaries, or (C) be kind, and she agreed to leave him a nice note apologizing for any noise she had made, along with her number so he can let her know in the future if she’s being noisy. Pretty stoked to share a non-escalating, conflict resolution approach with someone else
Update on this…he reached out to her first, leaving a nice note….ran into her yesterday, encouraged her again to leave a note of her own…saw her doing it on my way to surf…then last night she gave an endorsement for me as a trainer (possibly leading me to a new personal training client).
Good energy all around 🙂
The real impetus behind this thread comes from about six weeks ago, where a motorcyclist hit my mirror super hard while waiting for a light (assume he was trying to inch his bike around my car). I turned to figure out what the noise was and he did the “come at me bro” crab-arm posture.
That shit would drive me bananas. I’m mad just reading this.
Bram wrote:
The real impetus behind this thread comes from about six weeks ago, where a motorcyclist hit my mirror super hard while waiting for a light (assume he was trying to inch his bike around my car). I turned to figure out what the noise was and he did the “come at me bro” crab-arm posture.
That shit would drive me bananas. I’m mad just reading this.
Responding by doing nothing was severely emasculating. Decided I needed another option.
It is very hard after “the moment” to know what to do…basically all my imagined scenarios are versions of grabbing him by the collar and soul-gazing him.
Bram wrote: The real impetus behind this thread comes from about six weeks ago, where a motorcyclist hit my mirror super hard while waiting for a light (assume he was trying to inch his bike around my car). I turned to figure out what the noise was and he did the “come at me bro” crab-arm posture. That shit would drive me bananas. I’m mad just reading this.
Responding by doing nothing was severely emasculating. Decided I needed another option. It is very hard after “the moment” to know what to do…basically all my imagined scenarios are versions of grabbing him by the collar and soul-gazing him.
There’s no easy answer to what the right response to this type of situation is. Crush him with car? Tuck penis and shuffle away? Provoke him so that anything that happens can be claimed as self defense? There are certainly times when letting things slide is the wise move, but then again, great things are produced from recklessness as often as from prudence.
I have no idea, I’m all for pusillanimity in the right circumstances, but this dude needed some repercussion.
One time, while horribly drunk, some big dude tried to insult me in front of his girlfriend. I screamed in his face “I HAVE A SPIKED BASEBALL BAT AND I’LL SMASH YOU WITH IT” — that seemed the right thing for that situation.
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